18pdr MkIVP and some other guns in Commonwealth artillery?

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Leon57
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18pdr MkIVP and some other guns in Commonwealth artillery?

#1

Post by Leon57 » 02 Jun 2007, 11:47

Hello! :)

I've read that
Both 18-prs, Mk 1 and Mk 2, were superseded by the Mk 4 of 1920 but New Zealand carried on with obsolete equipments until 1941 when 25-prs were received
.
http://riv.co.nz/rnza/hist/gun/mech3b.htm

Anyone knows whether "18pdr MkIVP" guns http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/18pdrsheet.htm saw service with Canadian, Australian and South African artillery? Or "18 pdr MkI,II" (with pole trail, recoil system on top of the gun barrel and pneumatic tyres instead of wooden wheels) were still in use till these guns (and 4.5" howitzers) were replaced with 25-pdrs?

Leonid :roll:
Last edited by Leon57 on 06 Jun 2007, 07:47, edited 2 times in total.
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David W
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#2

Post by David W » 02 Jun 2007, 15:20

Leon57.

I can't help with the Canadians, but I can look up some stuff on the South Africans & Australians later.

Watch this space. :)
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JonS
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#3

Post by JonS » 04 Jun 2007, 04:00

Non-operationally: probably.
Operationally: probably not.

Note, however, that the 18-pr was used operationally during Op CRUSADER in late 1941. It was used as an A-Tk weapon however, rather than as a fd gun.
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shane1967
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#4

Post by shane1967 » 04 Jun 2007, 04:40

Hi

I agree with Jon S above that the 18 pdr IVP was used in the A Tk role. A summary of arty holdings within 7 Aust Div dated 30 April 1941 identifies 24 18 pdr IVP.

Another Appendix in the above document deals with approximate receipts of equipment during April 1941. It notes the receipt of 11 18 pdr IVP by 2/5 Aust Fd Regt as:

18 Apr 41 2
21 Apr 41 6
23 Apr 41 3

cheers

Shane Lovell
Canberra, Australia
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Leon57
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#5

Post by Leon57 » 04 Jun 2007, 10:45

Hmm, interesting details, thanks! :o It seems that 7th Div replaced old guns with the new ones before Syrian campaign (including a quantity of 18pdr IV) but I don't think that they had taken them away with themselves to Australia, right? :)
Another Appendix in the above document deals ...
Is it a Veb source or a book? :roll:
BTW: I remember I was also meeting a mention of 18pdr MkV guns (split trail carriage) in 9th Australian Div but I don't remember where! :(
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shane1967
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#6

Post by shane1967 » 04 Jun 2007, 14:31

Leon57

7 Aust Div and the Syrian campaign are not something I have looked at closely. The above information comes from the HQ RAA 7 Aust Div war diary.

I will have to look at 9 Aust Div to answer your question.

I have certainly never seen any mention of 18 pdrs being returned to Australia.

cheers

Shane
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David W
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#7

Post by David W » 05 Jun 2007, 00:01

15th Battery 2/8 Field Regiment R.A.A is showing 12 x 18Pdrs @ 31/03/41.
(I have always treated this entry with suspision, because as has already been mentioned, the 18Pdrs were anti tank artillery, not field. I suspect that this should read 18/25Pdrs). Shane, your comments would be appreciated.

Conversely, one each of the batteries from 2nd & 1st S.A anti tank Regiments, are showing 16 x 18/25pdrs (each) @ ??/11/41. These are more probably straight 18Pdrs.

That's all I've got.
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Leon57
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#8

Post by Leon57 » 05 Jun 2007, 08:32

Thanks anyway! :)
because as has already been mentioned, the 18Pdrs were anti tank artillery, not field.
That's going too far ... :? Classical 18pdr guns had not an antitank shots as far as I know thus only 18/25pdr guns could see some use in antitank regs (for want of real antitank guns), IMHO!
BTW: The Finns did use 30 18pdr MkII (84 K/18) guns but Finnish antitank shells for these guns were introduced only in 1942! :roll:
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David W
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#9

Post by David W » 05 Jun 2007, 08:44

I,m sorry, I should have made myself clearer.

What I meant to say is...... " The 18Pdrs issued to anti tank units (& others) in the Western Desert in WWII, were done so because of a lack of 2 Pdrs & as a stop gap until the 6Pdrs arrived". This in no way reflects upon their WWI usage, or field gun capabilities.
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Leon57
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#10

Post by Leon57 » 05 Jun 2007, 09:48

The 18Pdrs issued to anti tank units (& others) in the Western Desert in WWII, were done so because of a lack of 2 Pdrs & as a stop gap until the 6Pdrs arrived
That's really ... but what about antitank shells for 18pdrs? Have you any info? :)
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JonS
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#11

Post by JonS » 05 Jun 2007, 10:09

Leon, the 18-prs really were issued as A-Tk guns in the Western Desert in 1941. I suspect that they just fired HE rounds, with no fuze inserted.

You might be able to find something here:
http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2Arti.html
or here:
http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/anti-tank.htm and http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/18pdrsheet.htm
"The 18-pr was used by the BEF in 1940 and was also used that year in North Africa and in very small numbers in Hong Kong, Malaya, Borneo and Burma in late 1941 and early 1942."
Unfortunately, Nigel omits any mention of the 18-pr in the A-Tk role.

Also, perhaps Tony Williams might have some info on the ammo.

18/25-prs would NOT have seen any service oin A-Tk Regts.
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Leon57
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#12

Post by Leon57 » 05 Jun 2007, 11:30

Hello JonS!
Unfortunately, Nigel omits any mention of the 18-pr in the A-Tk role.

I seem to have found one indirect mention though...
However, soon after WW1 an armour piercing HE shell had been developed for the 18-pdr field gun (such shells had been common for naval guns), and the original design of 25-pdr ammunition had been for an armour piercing cap for 25-pdr HE, this design was unsuccessful. Later in the WW2 a shaped charge (HEAT) shell was developed and issued to 3.7-inch Howitzers in Burma, although in the event it was never needed.
:)
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#13

Post by JonS » 05 Jun 2007, 12:56

Yeah, I saw that. Unfortunately "developed =! "produced"
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shane1967
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#14

Post by shane1967 » 05 Jun 2007, 14:20

Leon

Again agree with Jon S. For example:

AWM52 4/1/13 HQ RAA 6 Aust Div

30 June 1941

CRA conferred with G1 regarding suggested change in orgainisation of 1 Aust A/Tk Regt. The suggested change was the substitution of sixteen 18 pdr guns in lieu of 16 A/Tk guns.

cheers

Shane
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Leon57
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#15

Post by Leon57 » 06 Jun 2007, 07:41

shane1967 wrote: Again agree with Jon S.
I suspect it is a collusion (joke)! :lol:

BTW: When reading the "Official Histories – Second World War" that are uploaded on "Australian War Memorial" I've found an interesting pre-war photo of Australian 18pdr MkIV but with wooden wheels!
See: Volume I – To Benghazi (1961 reprint), Chapter 1 – Between the Wars
The link to pdf file: http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/histor ... ers/01.pdf
It means that Australians unlike New Zealanders (if to trust RNZA site!) could also have 18pdrs MkIVP in Australia! Why not? I think that replacement of wooden wheels to pneumatics was feasible work even for prewar Australian industry! Or am I mistaken?

Also, I have slightly changed a topic name to expand a discussion theme without overloading of the forum by numerous small topics.
I wonder: did Australians use 4.5" guns (not howitzers!) and later 5.5" guns/howitzers and 17pdr AT guns in WW2? I think NO but... :roll:

Thanks for all your replies,
Leon :)
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