51st Field Regiment R.A (TA)
51st Field Regiment R.A (TA)
I need confirmation of which guns this unit was using in the period 1941 - 1942. Please.
Some sources state 203Bty on 12 x 18/25Pdr. Others; 12 x 25 Pdr.
Most seem agreed on 370Bty on 12 x 4.5" Howitzer.
Ta.
Some sources state 203Bty on 12 x 18/25Pdr. Others; 12 x 25 Pdr.
Most seem agreed on 370Bty on 12 x 4.5" Howitzer.
Ta.
Farndale, 'Years of defeat', page 162: "On 11th April 203rd Battery collected 12 x 25-pounder guns."
page 187: "On the 7th May 51st Field Regiment reported that 26th Australian Infantry Brigade's front of 10 miles was held by 18th Cavalry, 23rd adn 48th Battalions with 203rd and 370th Batteries in support. OPs were on the perimeter with a mobile FOO. 203rd Battery was linked to B/O Battery and two of its 4.5-inch howitzers were kept well forward." [presumably the 4.5-inch belonged to B/O]
It's not terribly clear, but I'd be inclined to think 370 had 25-pr as well (depending, I suppose, on exactly which part of 1941-42 you are talking about.)
page 187: "On the 7th May 51st Field Regiment reported that 26th Australian Infantry Brigade's front of 10 miles was held by 18th Cavalry, 23rd adn 48th Battalions with 203rd and 370th Batteries in support. OPs were on the perimeter with a mobile FOO. 203rd Battery was linked to B/O Battery and two of its 4.5-inch howitzers were kept well forward." [presumably the 4.5-inch belonged to B/O]
It's not terribly clear, but I'd be inclined to think 370 had 25-pr as well (depending, I suppose, on exactly which part of 1941-42 you are talking about.)
1941. The 'perimeter' talked about is the Tobruk perimeter.
Any other entries for 203 or 370 are just regarding locations of actions.
oh, wait. 51st arrived at Suez on 23 Oct (1940), and was in action under command 6 Aust Div by 15 Dec (again, that passage isn't terribly clear. It refers to multiple units, but 51st seems to be the one that went to the Aussies)
Page 161: "on the 28th February (1941) 51st Fd Regt exchanged its guns for the 18-pounders and 4.5-inch howitzers of 2/2nd Aust Fd Regt at Cirene." So 4.5s for 370 is probably right then.
Any other entries for 203 or 370 are just regarding locations of actions.
oh, wait. 51st arrived at Suez on 23 Oct (1940), and was in action under command 6 Aust Div by 15 Dec (again, that passage isn't terribly clear. It refers to multiple units, but 51st seems to be the one that went to the Aussies)
Page 161: "on the 28th February (1941) 51st Fd Regt exchanged its guns for the 18-pounders and 4.5-inch howitzers of 2/2nd Aust Fd Regt at Cirene." So 4.5s for 370 is probably right then.
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Re: 51st Field Regiment R.A (TA)
I've been reading the war diary of 51st Field Regiment for Nov 41 and find a reference to them having 3 Armoured O.P.s. Could anyone suggest whether these would have been tanks or armoured cars? They were noted as having been moved up by rail in early Nov 41 whilst the rest of the Regiment moved by road. My initial supposition being, therefore, that they would be tracked vehicles. Any further information very welcome.
Either way the Regiment as a whole (203, 370 and 436 Bty's) moved forward on 1 Nov 41 with "36 Quads, with trailers, and guns".
Regards
Tom
Either way the Regiment as a whole (203, 370 and 436 Bty's) moved forward on 1 Nov 41 with "36 Quads, with trailers, and guns".
Regards
Tom
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Re: 51st Field Regiment R.A (TA)
Perhaps I should have read ahead.
The Armoured O.Ps were recorded as being Carriers in the formal MidEast Movements Signal.
I was right about the tracks though!
Tom
The Armoured O.Ps were recorded as being Carriers in the formal MidEast Movements Signal.
I was right about the tracks though!
Tom
Re: 51st Field Regiment R.A (TA)
First mention of tanks (M3 Honey) as armoured OPs I have is in Jan 42 with 1 Armoured Division.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
Re: 51st Field Regiment R.A (TA)
Hello.
I don't have my books at hand, but according to 9 Aust Div Operation Instruction No. 1 of 24 Mar 1941:
"One composite bty 51 Fd Reg RA consisting of 16 pdrs Mk V [*] and 6 4.5 hows is under command each fwd bde."
*That's what is written, probably means Ordnance, Quick Firing 25 pounder Mark I on Carriage 18-pr Mark V and commonly called the 18/25 pounder.
That said... i was under the impression that the organization was 12x 4.5" and 12x 25pdrs...still confused.
In November 1941 it was 24x 25 pdrs.
regards,
-nuno
I don't have my books at hand, but according to 9 Aust Div Operation Instruction No. 1 of 24 Mar 1941:
"One composite bty 51 Fd Reg RA consisting of 16 pdrs Mk V [*] and 6 4.5 hows is under command each fwd bde."
*That's what is written, probably means Ordnance, Quick Firing 25 pounder Mark I on Carriage 18-pr Mark V and commonly called the 18/25 pounder.
That said... i was under the impression that the organization was 12x 4.5" and 12x 25pdrs...still confused.
In November 1941 it was 24x 25 pdrs.
regards,
-nuno
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Re: 51st Field Regiment R.A (TA)
Hi,
Nuno,
Andreas,
Regards
Tom
Nuno,
This is true, but only after 12 Nov when 203 Bty was detached with its 12 25-pdrs to join 7 Armoured Division.In November 1941 it was 24x 25 pdrs.
Andreas,
In response to Lessons from Crusader do you think or perhaps just a sign of having more tanks available?First mention of tanks (M3 Honey) as armoured OPs I have is in Jan 42 with 1 Armoured Division.
Regards
Tom
Re: 51st Field Regiment R.A (TA)
I think a reflection of having tanks come back from A.O.W. and being surplus to requirements.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
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Re: 51st Field Regiment R.A (TA)
Interesting snippet on Armoured O.Ps from 4 Ind Div CRA after Battleaxe:
Tom
RegardsSUPPORT OF “I” TANKS BY FIELD ARTILLERY.
(a) During the afternoon of June 15th the 31 Fd Regt were in support of 4 Armd Bde during their attack on CAPUZZO.
(b) Both Bty Comds went forward as F.O.Os. in I Tanks and gave valuable close support when the tanks were held up.
(c) When a tank versus tank battle was actually taking place the dust and confusion make it impossible for the guns to give any support.
(d) The I tanks of both F.O.Os. were both disabled by enemy fire during the action but apart from that they are considered unsuitable for the purpose the following reasons:-
(i) They are too slow.
(ii) Very difficult to control the driver.
(iii) F.O.O. has to carry out one of the crew’s duties as well as his own.
(iv) To observe, the F.O.O. has to have his head and shoulders outside the tank as the periscope is useless for observation of fire.
(v) A valuable tank is lost to the battle.
(e) The three alternatives appear to be a carrier, a light tank or an armoured car.
Carrier. Low to the ground, inconspicuous and good for observation. On the other hand, is liable to break down and is very vulnerable to all types of fire.
Light Tank. Easily controlled, good observation and not needed in battle. But liable to break down, slow and vulnerable to fire except S.A.A. and F.O.O. has to carry out one of the duties of the crew.
Armoured Car. Very good observation, fast, easily controlled and room for R.A. wireless operator and B.C.A.
Same vulnerability as Light Tank.
In my opinion the best vehicle for an F.O.O. in support of armoured formations is an Armoured Car.
Tom
Re: 51st Field Regiment R.A (TA)
And from that analysis to using the M3 Honey as an F.O.O. tank was a very small step.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
Re: 51st Field Regiment R.A (TA)
David W wrote:I need confirmation of which guns this unit was using in the period 1941 - 1942. Please.
Some sources state 203Bty on 12 x 18/25Pdr. Others; 12 x 25 Pdr.
Most seem agreed on 370Bty on 12 x 4.5" Howitzer.
1) On 18 January GHQ ME lists them with 24 x 18/25pdr Mk.IV (i.e. towards the end of Op Compass).nmao wrote:I don't have my books at hand, but according to 9 Aust Div Operation Instruction No. 1 of 24 Mar 1941:
"One composite bty 51 Fd Reg RA consisting of 16 pdrs Mk V [*] and 6 4.5 hows is under command each fwd bde."
*That's what is written, probably means Ordnance, Quick Firing 25 pounder Mark I on Carriage 18-pr Mark V and commonly called the 18/25 pounder.
That said... i was under the impression that the organization was 12x 4.5" and 12x 25pdrs...still confused.
In November 1941 it was 24x 25 pdrs.
2) After returning to Egypt for a spot of rest, they are re-equipped and sent back to Cyrenaica. As nmao notes, they have a bit more action in early April alongside the Australians before entering Tobruk on 7 or 8 April with 10 x 18pdr and 11 x 4.5" remaining.
3) On 11 April, 12 x 25pdr are shipped into Tobruk and handed to 51Fd to replace the 4.5" guns. The also lose another 18pdr about this time.
4) On 24 April, GHQ ME lists them with 12 x 25pdr and 12 x 18pdr - probably haven't caught up that 3 x 18pdr have been lost....