7th Medium Regiment RA & others!

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Urmel
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Re: 7th Medium Regiment RA & others!

#61

Post by Urmel » 29 Apr 2011, 15:05

But the guns were not obsolete. They were perfectly fine, except that their carriages had not been modernised. The Germans used them (and quite more obsolete stuff) extensively on all fronts.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 7th Medium Regiment RA & others!

#62

Post by Urmel » 13 Jun 2011, 17:25

A lorra lorra pictures here, including the special road-wheel assembly:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=135963
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42


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Re: 7th Medium Regiment RA & others!

#63

Post by Urmel » 13 Jun 2011, 17:29

David W wrote:I want to see how many we can place with which units & at what time. But I have to go to work now. I'll do it tonight, but I know that I will need a lot of help, because I have no where near 118!

Cheers!
None in XIII Corps in February 1942, they only had 4.5" guns and 6" howitzers.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 7th Medium Regiment RA & others!

#64

Post by Urmel » 15 Jun 2011, 10:59

JBond wrote:But the guns were not obsolete. They were perfectly fine, except that their carriages had not been modernised. The Germans used them (and quite more obsolete stuff) extensively on all fronts.
Further to this, just from the gun data, the Mle C Schneider appears to be vastly superior to the British 6" howitzer to me. Higher ROF, lower weight, 40% more range.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 7th Medium Regiment RA & others!

#65

Post by JonS » 17 Jun 2011, 01:00

David, I just had reason to look into 7th Mdm - they received the new 4.5-in guns in mid 1941 (~April), but they arrived from the UK without any gundrill manuals, so it took them quite a while (a couple of months) to figure out some drill and properly calibrate the guns.

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Re: 7th Medium Regiment RA & others!

#66

Post by David W » 17 Jun 2011, 08:29

Jon,
That's significantly earlier than the date of October 1941 that I had previously for their arrival!
Thanks.

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Re:

#67

Post by Clive Mortimore » 16 Jul 2011, 20:40

JonS wrote:Hokay, the following is mostly from Farndales "Years of Defeat" (which only covers through to the end of 41) with addl input from various places.

64 Mdm
24 July 1941 - Regt reunited in Sarafand, then moved to Beirut. 211 Bty equipped with 8 x 6-in.
Nov 41 - Regt located at Moascar in Ismalia.
26 Dec 41 - Regt at Mersa Matruh

After 212 Bty went off to Abyssinia, 64 Mdm Regt was made up of 211, 234 (8 x 4.5-in How), and 355 Mdm Btys for Op COMPASS.
For Greece & Crete the Regt consisted of 211 Mdm Bty and 234 Mdm Bty (8 x 4.5-in How). After return to Egypt 234 Bty went back to 68 Mdm Regt, and 212 Bty rejoined 64 Mdm (as above). On Crete 234 Bty had "13 x Italian Field Guns"

67 Mdm Regt
31 Dec 1941 - Involved in attack on Bardia (that's all I have for them)

7 Mdm
Already in Egypt when war broke out.
25/26 Bty equipped with 60-pr (iron-tyred, wooden wheeled)
27/28 Bty equipped with 6-in (iron-tyred, wooden wheeled)
Involved throughout COMPASS, although weapons were falling to bits (eg cracked trails)
Mar-41 to Greece
22 Apr 41 - guns spiked in Greece
25 Apr 41 - evacuate Greece
26 Apr 41 - land in Crete, acting as inf (though they may have got some Italian guns at some point)
29 May 41 - evacuate Crete
Jun 41 - Syria, with 6-in How
Jun 41 - 27/28 Bty involved in BATTLEAXE (under cmd 4 Ind Div)
Nov 41 - Regt involved in CRUSADER
Jan42 - Jun 42 - dunno. I suspect it was during this period they would have been re-equipped with modern guns, a'la 64 Mdm Regt
Jun-42 - May 43 - fought continuously in Western Desert. For quite some time after the Gazala-Tobruk fiasco 7 and 64 were the ONLY mdm regts in the Western Desert.
7 Mdm also fought in Sicily

Oh, and the perennial recommendation to check the NZ OHs (in particular "2 NZ Div Arty", "The Battle for Egypt", and "Alam Halfa and Alamein") and the Australian OHs, all of which are available on-line. I haven't looked into these ones since you can do that as well as I :)

Sorry to go back so far in this thread but I am a bit concerned about Medium Regiments being equiped with 4.5 inch howitzers, a field piece. Surely they had 4.5 inch Medium Guns Mk1. The Mk1 4.5 inch gun was a relined 60pdr Mk2. Normally a Medium Regiment would have a gun battery, 60 pdr or 4.5 inch Mk1 and a howitzer battery, 6 inch howitzer. As the war progressed the 6 inch howitzer was supplimented with a few US 155mm M1917 and M1918 Howitzers. Regiments were modernised with a battery 4.5 inch gun Mk2 and a battery 5.5 inch gun-howitzer. The 5.5 inch was regarded highly and some regiments had two batteries of them and no 4.5 inch.
Clive

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Re: 7th Medium Regiment RA & others!

#68

Post by JonS » 16 Jul 2011, 22:11

Probably, and as I pointed out in the post two above yours that was definitely the case for 7Mdm.

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Re: 7th Medium Regiment RA & others!

#69

Post by Clive Mortimore » 17 Jul 2011, 02:06

JBond wrote:
JBond wrote:But the guns were not obsolete. They were perfectly fine, except that their carriages had not been modernised. The Germans used them (and quite more obsolete stuff) extensively on all fronts.
Further to this, just from the gun data, the Mle C Schneider appears to be vastly superior to the British 6" howitzer to me. Higher ROF, lower weight, 40% more range.
I am confused Mr Bond. On the 12 July I wrote a detailed comparson of the 155mm Howitzer and the 6 inch as you had requested. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1609872
Your reply was.
JBond wrote:Many thanks for the educational post Clive!
3 days later you still persist with stating the unpopular, with RA crews, M1917 was a better weapon. If it was better then the crews would have sung its praises. The performance on paper does not always relate to what happens on the battlefield.
Clive

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Re: 7th Medium Regiment RA & others!

#70

Post by Urmel » 17 Jul 2011, 09:30

Clive

You need to look at the posting dates. June, not July. :milwink:
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 7th Medium Regiment RA & others!

#71

Post by David W » 17 Jul 2011, 10:52

Clive,

Great point re the 4.5 inch Medium Guns Mk1, being present rather than the 4.5" Howitzers. it makes sense & I will try to prove you are correct by looking for more supporting information.

How did the MkI performance differ from the latter model? (MkII I assume).
The latter model seemed to be more like the even later 5.5"gun than the 60Pdr, so quite a difference I would assume.

(June, July! Sort of mistake I have made in the past).

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Re: Re:

#72

Post by Urmel » 17 Jul 2011, 11:23

Clive Mortimore wrote:
JonS wrote:Hokay, the following is mostly from Farndales "Years of Defeat" (which only covers through to the end of 41) with addl input from various places.

64 Mdm
24 July 1941 - Regt reunited in Sarafand, then moved to Beirut. 211 Bty equipped with 8 x 6-in.
Nov 41 - Regt located at Moascar in Ismalia.
26 Dec 41 - Regt at Mersa Matruh

After 212 Bty went off to Abyssinia, 64 Mdm Regt was made up of 211, 234 (8 x 4.5-in How), and 355 Mdm Btys for Op COMPASS.
For Greece & Crete the Regt consisted of 211 Mdm Bty and 234 Mdm Bty (8 x 4.5-in How). After return to Egypt 234 Bty went back to 68 Mdm Regt, and 212 Bty rejoined 64 Mdm (as above). On Crete 234 Bty had "13 x Italian Field Guns"

67 Mdm Regt
31 Dec 1941 - Involved in attack on Bardia (that's all I have for them)

7 Mdm
Already in Egypt when war broke out.
25/26 Bty equipped with 60-pr (iron-tyred, wooden wheeled)
27/28 Bty equipped with 6-in (iron-tyred, wooden wheeled)
Involved throughout COMPASS, although weapons were falling to bits (eg cracked trails)
Mar-41 to Greece
22 Apr 41 - guns spiked in Greece
25 Apr 41 - evacuate Greece
26 Apr 41 - land in Crete, acting as inf (though they may have got some Italian guns at some point)
29 May 41 - evacuate Crete
Jun 41 - Syria, with 6-in How
Jun 41 - 27/28 Bty involved in BATTLEAXE (under cmd 4 Ind Div)
Nov 41 - Regt involved in CRUSADER
Jan42 - Jun 42 - dunno. I suspect it was during this period they would have been re-equipped with modern guns, a'la 64 Mdm Regt
Jun-42 - May 43 - fought continuously in Western Desert. For quite some time after the Gazala-Tobruk fiasco 7 and 64 were the ONLY mdm regts in the Western Desert.
7 Mdm also fought in Sicily

Oh, and the perennial recommendation to check the NZ OHs (in particular "2 NZ Div Arty", "The Battle for Egypt", and "Alam Halfa and Alamein") and the Australian OHs, all of which are available on-line. I haven't looked into these ones since you can do that as well as I :)

Sorry to go back so far in this thread but I am a bit concerned about Medium Regiments being equiped with 4.5 inch howitzers, a field piece. Surely they had 4.5 inch Medium Guns Mk1. The Mk1 4.5 inch gun was a relined 60pdr Mk2. Normally a Medium Regiment would have a gun battery, 60 pdr or 4.5 inch Mk1 and a howitzer battery, 6 inch howitzer. As the war progressed the 6 inch howitzer was supplimented with a few US 155mm M1917 and M1918 Howitzers. Regiments were modernised with a battery 4.5 inch gun Mk2 and a battery 5.5 inch gun-howitzer. The 5.5 inch was regarded highly and some regiments had two batteries of them and no 4.5 inch.

The info at this link should clear a number of things up, at least for end of 41:

http://wp.me/phMWl-jX

To wit:

i) on 4 November 41 only one medium regiment was mixed, two were not
ii) 4.5" howitzers were not with medium regiments
iii) Images I have seen in British Pathe films (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=13041 - see pictures of guns firing, about half to 2/3rds in, film is from December 41) from the time would indicate to me that 7 Medium had 4.5" Mk. II guns. But maybe someone can correct/confirm this?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 7th Medium Regiment RA & others!

#73

Post by Clive Mortimore » 17 Jul 2011, 16:37

JBond wrote:Clive

You need to look at the posting dates. June, not July. :milwink:
Yep I do :(
Clive

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Re: 7th Medium Regiment RA & others!

#74

Post by Clive Mortimore » 17 Jul 2011, 16:51

David W wrote:Clive,

Great point re the 4.5 inch Medium Guns Mk1, being present rather than the 4.5" Howitzers. it makes sense & I will try to prove you are correct by looking for more supporting information.

How did the MkI performance differ from the latter model? (MkII I assume).
The latter model seemed to be more like the even later 5.5"gun than the 60Pdr, so quite a difference I would assume.

(June, July! Sort of mistake I have made in the past).
Both 4.5 inch guns fired the same ammunition, and the barrels had the same internal characteristics which is the important part of any gun’s design. The MkII had a slightly greater range 20,500 yards compared with 20,000 of the MkI. This was due to the greater elevation of the MkII. We have two guns that were internally the same but externally a generation apart. The MkI being a rebuilt 60 pdr had a knackered body to start off with so was retired early when enough of the younger guns were in service.
Clive

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Re: 7th Medium Regiment RA & others!

#75

Post by Urmel » 17 Jul 2011, 17:03

Did you have a look at the video to ID the guns Clive?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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