Bomber Command in 1939 ???

Discussions on all aspects of the The United Kingdom & its Empire and Commonwealth during the Inter-War era and Second World War. Hosted by Andy H
User avatar
Markus Becker
Member
Posts: 641
Joined: 27 Apr 2005, 18:09
Location: Germany

Bomber Command in 1939 ???

#1

Post by Markus Becker » 03 Oct 2007, 14:51

Any idea how many medium bombers(Wellington, Whitley, Hampden) the RAF had when the war broke out?

User avatar
Andy H
Forum Staff
Posts: 15326
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:51
Location: UK and USA

#2

Post by Andy H » 03 Oct 2007, 19:26

Fifty-five squadrons strong in the last month of peace, Bomber Command slimmed down by the end of September to a front-line force of thirty-three squadrons, or 480 aircraft. The balance, except two squadrons, was 'non-mobilizable'—reserved, that is to say to cover initial war wastage or the needs of operational training. Of the thirty-three effective squadrons on less than ten were now in France as the Advance Air Striking Force. These were armed with obsolescent Battle—a single-engined aircraft advanced in its day, but now slow, short-ranged, poorly defended and completely incapable of bombing Germany from England. Fortunately the twenty-three squadrons which remained in this country were all equipped with some better. Six of them, in No. 2 Group, based in East Anglia, had the twin-engined Blenheim IV, our fastest bomber, the virtues of which were qualified by short range and a small bomb load. The rest flew Wellingtons, Whitleys and Hampdens, twin-engined aircraft slower than the Blenheim, but of considerably longer range and greater bomb-carrying capacity. The six squadrons of No. 3 Group, also in East Anglia, operated with the Wellington I and IA, whose six guns, mounted in three turrets, were reckoned to confer outstanding defensive power; the five squadrons on No. 4 Group, in Yorkshire, had the Whitley III or IV, with the longest endurance and slowest speed of the heavier bombers, and therefore restricted to bombing by night; and the remaining five squadrons, of No. 5 Group, in Lincolnshire, were equipped with Hampdens, slightly faster than the Wellingtons but with no turrets and fewer guns. These were the forces which the Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Air Chief Marshal Sir E. R. Ludlow-Hewitt, had at his disposal to implement our offensive air plans
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/U ... F-I-2.html


User avatar
Andy H
Forum Staff
Posts: 15326
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:51
Location: UK and USA

#3

Post by Andy H » 03 Oct 2007, 19:41

From a Time for Courage by John Terraine
Pg66
In Sept 1938 BC OoB was

17 Fairey Battle Sqns
16 Bristol Blenhiem Sqns
9 Armstrong-Whitworth Whitley Sqns
5 Handley Page Harrow Sqns
2 Vickers Wellesley Sqns

to which was added by September 1939
6 Handley Page Hampden Sqns
5 Vickers Armstrong Wellington Sqns
whilst in terms of available strength Terriane gives a figure of 352 aicraft within 25 Sqns (Pg97)compared to the Hyperwar figure of 480 aircraft and 33 Sqns.

Try to look for more later tonight.

Regards

Andy H
Last edited by Andy H on 03 Oct 2007, 22:59, edited 1 time in total.

JonS
Member
Posts: 3935
Joined: 23 Jul 2004, 02:39
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

#4

Post by JonS » 03 Oct 2007, 20:59

Niehorster?

User avatar
Andy H
Forum Staff
Posts: 15326
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:51
Location: UK and USA

#5

Post by Andy H » 03 Oct 2007, 23:18

Niehorster will give you the Command structure

From M J Bowyer's book 2Group RAF a complete history 1936-1945

Relative strengths as of 16:30hrs 01/09/39. All a/c numbers are for various Blenheim Mk's

79 Wing- 21Sqn 24 a/c with 20 servicable, 82Sqn 21a/c & 14
81 Wing- 90Sqn 25a/c and 5 +2 (in 12hrs), 101Sqn 16a/c & 16
82 Wing-114Sqn 28a/c & 14, 139Sqn 31a/c &14
83 Wing-107Sqn 28a/c & 18 +1(in 12hrs), 110Sqn 20a/c & 7 +11(in 12hrs)
70 Wing-18Sqn 25a/c & 18, 57Sqn 24a/c & 17

In addition there were 104 & 108Sqns at Bassingbourn and 52 & 63Sqns at Upwood, all of which became Group Pool Sqns passing to 6Group on 02/09/39, with 35 & 207Sqns also set aside for training like 98Sqn

Regards

Andy H

User avatar
Markus Becker
Member
Posts: 641
Joined: 27 Apr 2005, 18:09
Location: Germany

#6

Post by Markus Becker » 04 Oct 2007, 11:08

Talk about surprise! I´d never expected Germany having more medium bombers than Britain.

800 He111+ 350 Do17

User avatar
Andy H
Forum Staff
Posts: 15326
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:51
Location: UK and USA

#7

Post by Andy H » 04 Oct 2007, 12:00

Markus Becker wrote:Talk about surprise! I´d never expected Germany having more medium bombers than Britain.

800 He111+ 350 Do17
Hi Markus

I may well be wrong but I dont think the RAF had Medium class of bombers. They veiwed the Wellington, Whitely and Hampdens as 'Heavy' bombers with the Battles & Blenhiems being seen as 'Light' bombers.

Regards

Andy H

User avatar
Markus Becker
Member
Posts: 641
Joined: 27 Apr 2005, 18:09
Location: Germany

#8

Post by Markus Becker » 04 Oct 2007, 13:20

Andy H wrote: Hi Markus

I may well be wrong but I dont think the RAF had Medium class of bombers. They veiwed the Wellington, Whitely and Hampdens as 'Heavy' bombers with the Battles & Blenhiems being seen as 'Light' bombers.

Regards

Andy H
So it´s a definition thing. Until the Lancaster and Co. were available the planes mentioned above were the heaviest the RAF had and therefore defined as "heavy" bombers, although the actual payload was similar to the german mediums.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

#9

Post by phylo_roadking » 04 Oct 2007, 15:35

They were regarded as "medium" night bombers, for by September 1939 the first design work was already in hand on the first of the "heavy" bombers, the Stirling, Manchester (shudder), Halifax etc.. It was planned in peacetime as a phased rollout of aircraft - although everyone knew war was coming, they didn't expect it quite so soon; Barnes Wallis even had begun designing the six-engined "Victory" bomber until events and time revelaed that it wouldn't be needed to end the war.

maxs75
Member
Posts: 239
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 17:54
Location: Italy

BC

#10

Post by maxs75 » 04 Oct 2007, 19:57

Andy H wrote:Niehorster will give you the Command structure

From M J Bowyer's book 2Group RAF a complete history 1936-1945

Relative strengths as of 16:30hrs 01/09/39. All a/c numbers are for various Blenheim Mk's

79 Wing- 21Sqn 24 a/c with 20 servicable, 82Sqn 21a/c & 14
81 Wing- 90Sqn 25a/c and 5 +2 (in 12hrs), 101Sqn 16a/c & 16
82 Wing-114Sqn 28a/c & 14, 139Sqn 31a/c &14
83 Wing-107Sqn 28a/c & 18 +1(in 12hrs), 110Sqn 20a/c & 7 +11(in 12hrs)
70 Wing-18Sqn 25a/c & 18, 57Sqn 24a/c & 17

In addition there were 104 & 108Sqns at Bassingbourn and 52 & 63Sqns at Upwood, all of which became Group Pool Sqns passing to 6Group on 02/09/39, with 35 & 207Sqns also set aside for training like 98Sqn

Regards

Andy H
Weren't 52, 63 35, 207 and 98 mainly Battle units?

From Terraine "The right of the line":
Bomber command 31/08/1939 on paper 55 squadrons, 920 a/c.

Bomber command 03/09/1939: 25 squadrons, 352 a/c because of:
1st Group to AASF (10 sq., 160a/c)
2 sq. fron 2nd Group to BEF
1 Whitley sq. not operational
17 squadrons became OTU



Max

User avatar
Andy H
Forum Staff
Posts: 15326
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:51
Location: UK and USA

#11

Post by Andy H » 05 Oct 2007, 02:22

They were regarded as "medium" night bombers
Hi Phylo

I've not seen that description before. Where did you get it from and if it was sued what time frame did it cover?

The reasoning to my second part of my statement was that if they were designated as Heavy at the war's outbreak, and then with the delivery of the Stirling, Lancaster and Halifax etc that they were then redsignated as Medium.

Regards

Andy H

User avatar
Andy H
Forum Staff
Posts: 15326
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:51
Location: UK and USA

#12

Post by Andy H » 05 Oct 2007, 02:38

Max wrote:
Weren't 52, 63 35, 207 and 98 mainly Battle units?
Hi Max

Yes they were, except for 35Sqn which was a Blenheim squadron according to RAF Squadrons by Wing Commande Jefford. Obviously they were still all part of 2Group.

Regards

Andy H

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

#13

Post by phylo_roadking » 05 Oct 2007, 03:57

It was a Flypast article a couple of years back. I'll see if I can't dig it up but a lot of my collections went west when I moved house a year ago :-(

JonS
Member
Posts: 3935
Joined: 23 Jul 2004, 02:39
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

#14

Post by JonS » 05 Oct 2007, 03:57

Niehorster has a bit more than just command arrangements.
http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain ... omber.html
Anything with a shadow is clickable.

User avatar
Andy H
Forum Staff
Posts: 15326
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:51
Location: UK and USA

#15

Post by Andy H » 05 Oct 2007, 04:15

JonS wrote:Niehorster has a bit more than just command arrangements.
http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain ... omber.html
Anything with a shadow is clickable.
Hi Jon

I couldn't see any strengths lsited only a/c types, unless I missed them.

Regards

Andy H

Post Reply

Return to “The United Kingdom & its Empire and Commonwealth 1919-45”