British AFV and/or RA returns - Middle East/Central Med

[gjkennedy]

I was wondering whether anyone had come across the following during their studies!

AFV returns for British formations (ideally down to unit level) for 8th Army from early October 1942 to the end of the campaign in North Africa. Also the same for 1st Army in North Africa from November 1942 to the end in the theatre.

AFV returns for British formations (again, ideally down to unit level) for Sicily and Italy from July 1943 to May 1945.

Also, the same for artillery, particularly anti-tank and light anti-aircraft, for the same periods.

I'm hoping there may be something along these lines lurking at the National Archives at Kew, but a trawl through their online catalogue failed to turn up anything that might fit the bill.

If anyone might have seen something at Kew that covers one or more of these subjects I'd appreciate the help. Thanks

Gary

[RichTO90]

I was wondering whether anyone had come across the following during their studies!

AFV returns for British formations (ideally down to unit level) for 8th Army from early October 1942 to the end of the campaign in North Africa. Also the same for 1st Army in North Africa from November 1942 to the end in the theatre.

AFV returns for British formations (again, ideally down to unit level) for Sicily and Italy from July 1943 to May 1945.

Also, the same for artillery, particularly anti-tank and light anti-aircraft, for the same periods.

I'm hoping there may be something along these lines lurking at the National Archives at Kew, but a trawl through their online catalogue failed to turn up anything that might fit the bill.

If anyone might have seen something at Kew that covers one or more of these subjects I'd appreciate the help. Thanks

Gary

Hi Gary, the AFV returns for British Forces Middle East were by formation usually, rather than by unit and may be found in:

WO 169/27 (Dec 40)
WO 169/952 (Mar 41-Dec 41)
WO 169/3861 (Jan-Dec 42)
WO 169/8350 (30 Dec 42-7 Sep 43)
WO 201/440 (Oct-Nov 42)

The latter dates are daily, the earlier ones periodic and note that many dates are missing.

Artillery Reports are in:

WO 169/28-56 (June-Dec 40)
WO 169/3858 (14 Feb-17 Oct 42)
WO 169/8355 (31 Dec 42-30 Sep 43)
WO 189/949 (12 Jan-4 Nov 41)

Eighth Army reports for Sicily and Italy are much more complete and may be found in the Annexes to the Eighth Army War Diaries (they should be easy to look up, but just let me know if you need the references). The AFV reports are irregular to begin, but then are complete nearly daily to the end of the war, by formation and unit. They in fact are so extensive that at the time we only copied portions (every ten days or so) due to the high cost, but if you have a digital camera it should be relatively easy to capture all of them. The artillery reports are periodic and usually by the week.

Hope that helps and let me know if you need more help.

[gjkennedy]

Thanks Rich, that's most helpful!

As you've seen the returns, could I possibly put a short list of questions to you on their format and content so I can find out if they'll answer the specific queries I have?

Thanks again, and a Happy New Year to all (given the date today).

Gary

[RichTO90]

Thanks Rich, that's most helpful!

As you've seen the returns, could I possibly put a short list of questions to you on their format and content so I can find out if they'll answer the specific queries I have?

Thanks again, and a Happy New Year to all (given the date today).

Gary

Sure, but in general the Middle East records give information on holdings by type of tank and condition, for formations (army/corps/division) as well as those in transit to and from workshops.

The records for Italy give data for the unit by type and condition of tanks, utilizing the standard ready/repairable in under 24 hours/repairable in over 24 hours format and also record write-offs reported for the day.

[gjkennedy]

I'm trying to gather as much intel on the format of the records for the simple reason that it is very hard for me to get to Kew and spend any meaningful amount of time there without it being too expensive a proposition. That means I either have to order copies online (in which case you have to be as detailed and specific as possible about what you want and where it is), or ask a researcher to look for me, which can also be costly.

For AFVs, I'm looking for information that can help me work out which units were on Middle East war establishments and which were on 'standard' ones. AFV returns I have for Northwest Europe tend to show holdings of AFVs by type for formations (either a Division or a Brigade), with an overall unit entitlement for each type of AFV. From that it is possible to find out which WEs were in force at the time and also have an insight into shortfalls of equipment.

I've only seen one detailed RA return, but that shows all anti-tank guns held by formations and Corps/Army units. In this area the first question I would hope to resolve is the issue of 2-pr or 6-pr anti-tank guns to those formations which arrived later in North Africa (1st, 4th and 78th Inf Divs for example) to see if they adopted the scale of 2-pr anti-tank gun issue found in 50th and 51st Divs. Also, RA Anti-tank Regts seem to have used different organisations in Italy to those in NWE, especially later on in the campaign.

From previous experience I think I'd need to have unit entitlements, holdings and war estabishments to hand to make sense of what basis units were operating on and how close (or otherwise) they were to their authorised strength. So far I only have one leg of a three legged stool and could do with knowing if the other two legs are available!

Thanks,

Gary

[RichTO90]

I've only seen one detailed RA return, but that shows all anti-tank guns held by formations and Corps/Army units. In this area the first question I would hope to resolve is the issue of 2-pr or 6-pr anti-tank guns to those formations which arrived later in North Africa (1st, 4th and 78th Inf Divs for example) to see if they adopted the scale of 2-pr anti-tank gun issue found in 50th and 51st Divs. Also, RA Anti-tank Regts seem to have used different organisations in Italy to those in NWE, especially later on in the campaign.

From previous experience I think I'd need to have unit entitlements, holdings and war estabishments to hand to make sense of what basis units were operating on and how close (or otherwise) they were to their authorised strength. So far I only have one leg of a three legged stool and could do with knowing if the other two legs are available!

Thanks,

Gary

Okay, then you really aren't looking for just the AFV and artillery states, but also the underlaying planning documents that describe what units were there and being sent and how they were being equipped to WE? In that case the same serial numbers for North Africa that I already gave apply, since the reports that you are interested in are interfiled with the "state" reports. For artillery throughout 1941-1943 BFME published RA reports on about a monthly basis that detailed the status of various RA units (Field, Medium, Heavy, AT, and AA) with regards to where they were, when they could be expected to arrive, and what their equipment versus WE was. Many of the periodic AFV reports for this period also give details on what total WE to actual was and so on, but the RAC records are not as complete as the RA records. Note that most of the reports that cover these matters did so because the WE being adopted in the field was not always exactly what was prescribed, especially with regards to equipment (see f.e. the discussions regarding equipping AT regiments and batteries with Bofors 37mm AT and US 75mm field guns).

By Italy however most of the WE had become more or less standardized and there was not nearly so much discussion regarding equipment issues.

Hope that helps.

[gjkennedy]

Thanks very much, looks like I might have a new project to keep me busy in 2008 after all!

Gary

[Michael Kenny]

Not exactly what you are after but still interesting.

All info from Charles Markuss

All data from the Royal Armoured Corps Half-yearly Progress Reports, courtesy of the Bovington Tank Museum

7/1942-12/1942, Appendix I:

Wastage 3/9/1939 - 23/12/1942


i. Middle East

Light Tanks: IIA 3, IIB 2, III 3, VI 27, VIA 86, VIB 113, VIC 9 [training machines in ME only - saw combat only in France 1940 - CM], VIAA 7, Stuarts 372, various 10. Total 632

Cruiser Tanks: Mk I 24, Mk II 2, Mk IIA 72, Mk IIA CS 11, Mk IVA 79, Crusader I 280, Crusader I CS 19, Crusader II 152, Crusader II CS24, Crusader III 25. Total 500 Crusaders
M3 Medium 350, Sherman 66. Total cruisers 1104


Infantry tanks: Matilda I 2 [training machines only - CM], Matilda II 30, Matilda III 186, Matilda III CS 2, Matilda IV 10, Matilda IV CS 11. Total Matildas 241. Valentine II 290, Valentine IV 27, Valentine V 4. Total Valentines 321. Total Infantry tanks 562

Total tanks 2298

Totals make no allowance for duplication that may have occurred in wastage reports.

ii. Europe - 'Dunkirk' [read as France 1940, including Calais, Cherbourg, etc]:

Light tanks 407, Cruisers 158, Infantry 186

Dieppe: Churchills 29

Total Europe 720

iii. Burma -

Stuarts 114

iv. P.A.I.C. [Persia, Afghanistan, India, China? ]

Light tank 1

v. Malta

Matilda III 1

Total wastage 3134 tanks

Lost at sea:

Light tanks Mk VI 7, Stuarts 88. Total 95. Cruisers 168 Grants, Lees 22, Sherman 78, Cruiser IVA 5, Rams 4.Total cruisers 277. Infantry tanks Matildas 212, Churchills 43, Valentines UK built 234, Valentines Canadian built 160. Total infantry tanks 729.

Total lost at sea 1101

Grand total all causes 4235
=============================================================================================

1/1943 - 6/1943 Appendix HH

Tank losses

(a) January - June 1943

Middle East: Light tanks 81, Cruiser tanks 173, Infantry tanks 140. Total 394

North Africa: Light tanks 2, Cruiser tanks 101, Infantry tanks 140. Total 169

India: Light tanks 1, Infantry tanks 4.

Lost at sea: Light tanks 16, Cruiser tanks 150, Infantry tanks 39.

Total losses all causes 773.


7/1943 - 12/1943 Part VI:

43. Losses

Tanks:
to 30.6.43 30.6.43 to 31.12.43

Light tanks 1357 90
Cruiser tanks 1971 725
Infantry tanks 1770 257


Armoured cars: 485 158

44. shipments to Russia:

Ex UK Valentines 933
Ex Canada Valentines 155

1/1944 - 6/1944: Part VI

53. Losses

Tanks:
31.12.43 to 30.6.1944

Light tanks 161
Cruiser tanks 1178
Infantry tanks 350

54. shipments to Russia:

Ex UK Valentines 107

7/1944 - 12/1944 Part VI Appendix 'Y':

Annex 1: Total tank losses to 31 January 1945

Stuart M3A1/M3A3: UK 66*, 21 Army Group 201, 15 Army Group 107, N. Africa 115, Middle East 638, India/SEAC 5<>, lost at sea 129.
Stuart M5A1: UK *, 21 Army Group 80. N. Africa and Middle east figures for 12/44 unavailable. India/SEAC nil, Lost at sea nil.
Sherman: UK nil, 21 Army Group 1855, 15 Army Group 814 (+), N. Africa 169, Middle east 222 (12/44 figures not available but estimate = nil), India/SEAC 4 <>, lost at sea 272 but includes 20 to Turkey.
Cromwell: UK 307><, 21 Army Group 464, none elsewhere/at sea.
Challenger: 21 Army gruop 18, none elsewhere/at sea.
Churchill: UK 219, 21 Army Group 365, 15 Army Group 62 (+), N. Africa 73 (+), Middle east 3 (+), lost at sea 64.

*includes some M5A1. (+) 12/44 figures unavailable - estimated 92 Shermans only
<> excludes losses 1/44. >< includes 280 non-operational type in process of being written off (engines being salvaged).

Annex 2: Battle losses 21 Arrmy Group to 31.12.44

June: Sherman 66, Cromwell 42, Churchill 16.
July: Sherman 186 Cromwell 28 Churchill 17.
August: Sherman 547 Cromwell 143 Churchill 142, Challenger 2.
September: Sherman 115 Cromwell 7 Churchill nil, Challenger nil.
October: Sherman 490 Cromwell 174 Churchill 56 Challenger 11.
November: Sherman 158 Cromwell 36 Churchill 81 Challenger 1
December: Sherman 157 Cromwell 5 Churchill 21 Challenger 1

Total 1944: 1739 435 335 15

Grand total 2524
=====================================================================================

1/1945- 6/1945 Part VI: Appendix 'Y'

Total cumulative tank losses to 30 June 1945

Stuart M3/M3A1/M3A3: UK 67, including some M5A1, 21 Army Group 248, 15 Army Group incl. N.Africa 346, Middle east 643, India/SEAC 298, at sea 129.
Stuart M5A1: UK as above, 21 Army Group 185, 15 Army Group 1.
Chaffee: 21 Army group 2, at sea 8.
Sherman: UK 116 (including 2 en route to 21 Army Group), 21 Army Group 2712, 15 Army Group 1174, Middle east 148, India/SEAC 31, at sea 272 including 20 to Turkey.
Cromwell: UK 302 including 3 en route to 21 Army Group, 21 Army Group 609.
Challenger: UK 1, text states 59 but total for Challenger given as 40, so perhaps a typo for 39.
Comet: 21 Army Group 26.
Churchill: UK 188, 21 Army group 656, 15 Army Group 196, Middle east 4, India/SEAC 1, at sea 64.

Armoured cars (current operational types): UK 312, 21 Army Group 645, 15 Army Group 242, Middle east 454, India/SEAC 218.

21 Army Group losses: Stuarts 433, Chaffee 2, Sherman 2712, Cromwell 609, Challenger 39 (perhaps 59, see above), Comet 26, Churchill 656, armoured cars 345.

15 Army Group losses: Stuarts 347, Sherman 1174, Churchill 196, armoured cars 242.

India/SEAC losses: Stuarts 298, Sherman 31, armoured cars 218, Churchill 1.

Middle east losses: Stuarts 643, Sherman 148, Churchill 4, armoured cars 454.

Lost at sea: Stuarts 129, Chaffes 8, Sherman 272 including 20 to turkey, Churchiull 64, plus Grant 168, and Lee 22 (earlier tables).

Missing data: Lee/Grant losses India/SEAC, ditto Middle east after 23.12.1943.

The total British + Commonwealth WW2 tank losses from all causes, including scrapping comes to 15, 844 of which 7020 (44.3%) were US built by my calculations.

Total armoured car losses comes to 1957.

Figures are also given for vehicles supplied to allies and neutrals including samples to Russia.
=============================================================================================

3/1941 - 9/1941: Appendix 'M'

Losses of A.F.Vs in France [1940]

Light tanks: Mk VIB 345, Mk VIC 62
Cruiser tanks: Mk I 6, Mk I CS 18, Mk II 31, Mk III 38. Mk IV 57, Mk IVA 8
Infantry tanks: [Matilda] Mk I 97. [Matilda] Mk II 29

Guy armoured car Mk I 6, scout cars 124

Losses in Norway [1940] Light tank Mk VI 1

[Urmel]

Thanks very much, looks like I might have a new project to keep me busy in 2008 after all!

Gary

Long time ago Gary, but did you get anywhere with this?