British armoured and infantry division organziation

[Kelvin]

Hi, anyone have detailed manpower breakdown of British armoured and infantry division on the eve of Normandy invasion. I mean every subunit manpower breakdown ; like Brigade HQ, infantry battalions, MG battalion, enginner companies, divisonal signal, artillery /AT/AA regiment and some thing like this. Of course, war establishment in theory.

[Kingfish]

This may help

http://warchronicle.com/units/British/5 ... battle.htm

[daveh]

see http://bayonetstrength.150m.com/
for useful information

[nedz]

This site is very good, but only for earlier periods
http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain/__uk.htm

This is the breakdown of 2nd Army during Neptune, but it is not complete
http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain ... rmy_02.htm

Hopefully, when they finish this site, it will give you what you need

[JonS]

go to 6Juin: http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/en_index.html

In particular, the landing tables for 50 Div: http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/gold/en_index.php

Although you're going to have to do some work to piece it together

[Kelvin]

Hi, did British armoured infantry battalion also used M-3 half-track or their own built Bren carrier ?. British infantry battalion had ten Bren carrier each. I have no idea on which type of APC used by their armoured infantry.

[JonS]

m3

[Kelvin]

Apart from nine infantry battalion ,why British infantry divison had a separate machine gun battalion (also normal infantry battalion but armed with 48 Vicker water-cooled heavy machine guns. Since she already had recce battalion for additional infantry support for that.
Also I see some book grouped British artillery (3 x field regiments, 1 x AT and 1 x AA regiment) into artillery brigade but some just make them separately. Did any artillery brigade HQ existed in infantry division.

[JonS]

recce bn was for, d'uh, recce. Not spt.

CRA controlled all the artillery, but it wasn't a brigade, per se

[gjkennedy]

Standard British Infantry Division, 1944

Headquarters of a Division - 152
Defence & Employment Platoon - 61
Field Security Section - 13

Infantry Divisional Signals - 710
Reconnaissance Regiment - 817
Machine Gun Battalion - 735

Three Infantry Brigades, each;

Headquarters of an Infantry Brigade - 70
Ground Defence Platoon - 27
Three Infantry Battalions, each - 845

Headquarters, Infantry Divisional Artillery - 37
Three Field Regiments, RA, each - 673
Anti-tank Regiment, RA - 718
Light Anti-aircraft Regiment, RA - 1040

Headquarters, Divisional Engineers - 31
Three Field Companies, each - 256
Field Park Company - 116
Divisional Bridging Platoon - 34

Headquarters of a Commander, RASC - 41
Three Infantry Brigade Companies, each - 316
Divisional Troops Company - 299

Three Field Ambulances, each - 245
Two Field Dressing Stations, each - 97
Field Hygiene Section - 28

Divisional Ordnance Field Park - 80

Headquarters, Commander REME - 20
Three Infantry Brigade Workshops, REME, each - 190
Light Aid Detachment, Type "A" (armoured) - 16
Four LADs, Type "A" (non-armoured), each - 14
Six LAD's Type "B" (non-armoured), each - 12
Light Anti-aircraft Regiment Workshop - 35

Divisional Provost Company - 115
Divisional Postal Unit - 25

Total strength (all ranks) 18,381

The above totals are all taken from the War Establishment tables in force as of June 1944. The two Assault Divisions (3rd and 50th) had variations in their Divisional Artillery, and likewise their LADs, due to the use of self-propelled equipments.

The British (and Commonwealth armies) kept faith with the system derived during WW1 for handling Vickers medium machine guns. By 1944 the MG Bn had three MMG Coys and one 4.2-inch Mortar Coy. One MMG Coy was routinely attached to each Inf Bde, and one Platoon could be deployed with each Inf Bn. The Recce Regt was equipped with light recce cars and armoured cars and was not tasked with infantry support. The British did not refer to their Divisional Artillery as a Brigade until the post-war era, though it effectively functioned as such. The Commander, RA, was a Brigadier and commanded all the five regts in the Div Arty, so it's more a matter of terminology. Likewsie the RE Companies were not termed as a Regiment, but the CRE, a Lieutenant-colonel, exercised control over the RE subunits in the same way a commander of a US Combat Engineer Bn would his command for example.

Halftracks were only used to transport Rifle Platoons in Motor Bns, which were part of Armd Bdes. A normal Inf Bn had 13 carrier in its Carrier Platoon, not 10, which was the allocation in 1940.

Let me know if you're still interested and I'll try and do the Armoured Division.

Gary

[Kelvin]

Hi , Gary, Thank so much for your detailed information, if you have same data on armoured divison, please send to me. Thank again

[gjkennedy]

British Armoured Division, Northwest Europe, 1944

Headquarters of an Armoured Division - 280
Employment Platoon - 34
Field Security Section - 13

Armoured Divisional Signals - 730
Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment - 692
Independent Machine Gun Company - 212

Headquarters of an Armoured Brigade - 205
Three Armoured Regiments, each - 692
Motor Battalion - 854

Headquarters of an Infantry Brigade - 70
Ground Defence Platoon - 27
Three Infantry Battalions, each - 845 (later 849)

Headquarters, Armoured Divisional Artillery - 49
Field Regiment (SP), RA - 645
Field Regiment, RA - 673
Anti-tank Regiment, RA - 773
Light Anti-aircraft Regiment, RA - 1040

Two Field Squadrons, RE, each - 265
Field Park Squadron, RE - 116
Bridging Troop, RE - 34

Headquarters of a Commander, RASC - 41
Armoured Brigade Company - 542
Infantry Brigade Company - 379
Armoured Divisional Troops Company - 462
Armoured Divisional Transport Company - 367

Light Field Ambulance - 192
Field Ambulance - 245
Field Dressing Station - 97
Field Hygiene Section - 28

Divisional Ordnance Field Park - 68

Headquarters, Commander REME - 20
Armoured Brigade Workshop, REME - 286
Infantry Brigade Workshop, REME - 190
Light Aid Detachment, Type "A" (non-armoured) - 14
LAD Type "B" (non-armoured) - 12
Four LADs, Type "B" (armoured), each - 14
Four LADs, Type "C", each - 25
LAD Type "D" - 38
LAD Type "C" - 43
Light Anti-aircraft Regiment workshop - 35

Divisional Provost Company - 115
Divisional Postal Unit - 22

Total strenght (all ranks) 14,541

Things to mention here, the Armd Recce Regt used by 21st Army Group was in effect a standard Armd Regt. The Armd Recce Regt Type "B" that was supposed to be used had more light tanks and fewer cruisers than a normal Armd Regt. (It's probably not a good idea to use the term 'normal Armd Regt' as there were a nunber of variations dependent upon the type of tank operated). The Type "B" Armd Recce Regts were used in Italy but not in Northwest Europe. Before the end of 1944 Armd Divs were given an Armoured Car Regt each, previously Corps Troops, for recce work, allowing their Armd Recce Regts to become Armd Regts proper.

The Infantry Brigade was lorried rather than motorised, a subtle distinction, but its Rifle Coys were carried in 3-ton Troop Carrying Vehicles (TCVs) from the Div RASC. The single Motor Bn was capable of lifting all its personnel with its organic transport, and its Motor (Rifle) Platoons were carried in halftracks. Each Motor Coy also had a Scout Platoon with 11 carriers.

Also, neither the Inf nor Armd Div stood still during the campaign organisation wise. The Inf Div Atk Regt changed several times, Counter Mortar Staffs were added, and the large LAA Regts were trimmed down to 578 all ranks, and there were other minor amendments.

Gary

[Kelvin]

Hi Gary thank again, but why British armoured division not mounted all their infantry battalions in infantry brigades in half-track which provided infantry more safety from bullet or shell splinter. British should have resources to do that in 1944.

In the order of battle in Singapore 1942, I cannot find RASC, REME and AA regiment in British 18th infantry divison ( what I find was three brigades with nine battalion, MG btn, recce btn, three field regiments , one At regiment , three eng companies , one field park coy and three ambul services). Did AA regiment was standard equipment in infantry division in 1942. and lack of support service in 18th division because of this division was not completely built. Some book tell me it was newly built unit, I am not sure about that. Do you have idea on that ?

[gjkennedy]

The British did a lot of experimentation with the structure of the Armd Div, and to be honest they never really found one that worked quite as it should have! Back in 1940 the Armd Div had six Armd Regts and just two Motor Bns. In North Africa by 1942 the Armd Bde became the principle formaton, with three Armd Regts and a single Motor Bn. By late 1942 the Armd Div was to consist of one Armd Bde and one Inf Bde, but these two formations would not be expected to intermingle. Experience had shown that an Armd Div needed infantry to protect its gains and motorised infantry to protect the tanks. The infantry performing the first task did not necessarily need to be armoured to undertake this role. For example in October 1942 44th Inf Div was effectively broken up in North Africa, with its three Brigades becoming lorried and assigned out to Armd Divs to provide them with more substantial infantry resources than could be provided by the Motor Bns alone.

There were also issues of logistics to consider; in 1944 a Motor Bn took up a great deal more in shipping space than an Infantry Bn did, with roughly 90 vehicles for the Inf and almost 200 for the Motor units. The Motor Bns were strong in firepower but consequently weaker in manpower, so were not suited to prolonged infantry actions (444 men in the Inf Bn in rifle platoons compared to 279 in the Motor Bn). The infantry of an Armd Div did not necessarily have to ride right alongside the tanks blazing away with small arms, but did need to be mobile and able to move up quickly to secure the gains the tanks had made.

Italy provided different challenges and there British and Canadian Armd Divs eventually improvised a second Inf Bde to increase their rifle strength. In Northwest Europe British Armd Divs mostly adopted the 'group' structure, with one Armd Regt and one Inf or Mot Bn paired up, with two such Group per Bde, the attached Armd Car Regt undertaking recce work. I've seen it criticised but the Divs who used it seemed to find it worked well enough to retain it from July/Aug 1944 to May 1945, something I doubt they would have done if it was inferior. The Canadian and Polish Armd Divs, both using the same format as the British, would appear to have retained the official organisation in NWE.

Only the US Army made all of its infantry within an Armd Div armoured themselves, and I think the opinion was they never had enough infantry within these formations. From memory the US did intend to send out several Motorized Inf Divs to work specifically with Armd Divs, but the Motorized Divs took up so much shipping space they were not sent overseas, and converted back to standard Inf Divs. And don't forget, even by June 1941 the average Panzer Div only had a single Schutzen Coy mounted in halftrack, the remainder being carried by lorries and trucks. It wasn't until around 1943 that most Panzer Divs got one Panzer Grenadier Bn in halftracks, and only a few select Divs got more.

As for 18th Inf Div, it did not go overseas with a LAA Regt. The LAA Regt did not feature on the establishment of the British Inf Div until late 1941, but a quick look at the dates show them mostly appearing with Inf Divs during the first half of 1942. 18th Inf Div would certainly have had RASC units. These were organised as an Ammuniton Company, a Petrol Company and a Div Supply Column during 1941. There was no REME until late 1942, the RAOC being responsible for workshops and maintenance. Late 1941 there should have been a Divisional Ordnance Workshop and a Divisional Ordnance Field Park.

Relatively little info seems to be available on the organisation and provision of workshops and supply and transport units compared to the fighting units, and I've found this particularly so for the early war years (see my forlorn post on 7th Armd Div RAOC units in 1941-42 on this same forum!).

Gary

[Kelvin]

Hi Gary, thank so much for your excellent data.
With regard to 18th infantry divison, how many men they had in divisonal ordance workshop and field park ?
Normally one basic Indian infantry battalion, how many Indian/Gurkha and British they had ?, do you have that data?