Armament For Merchant Ships

[Mark McShane]

Here is something that has always been a bit of mystery to me. When the war started and merchant ships were armed (this would be the anti submarine 4'' mounted on the stern), you hear that they were all old guns( pre WW I) and that they were Japanese. How did Britian end up with all these old Japanese guns? I'm sure they were not all old Japanese guns, but when you hear it mentioned so often it gets you thinking.

Anybody have any information on this?

Regards,

Mark

[phylo_roadking]

When the war started and merchant ships were armed (this would be the anti submarine 4'' mounted on the stern), you hear that they were all old guns( pre WW I) and that they were Japanese. How did Britian end up with all these old Japanese guns

Mark, where did you hear this? The Merchant Navy in the UK used whatever they could get their hands on - a whole variety of weapons - AND had to compete for it with the Royal Naval Patrol Service.

[oneshooter]

From Wiki,

Neutrality Acts prevented arming of United States flagged merchant ships until 17 November 1941, although American-owned ships under Panamanian registry had been armed earlier.[20] Guns were manned by United States Navy Armed Guard. United States began equipping ships of other nations with guns and United States Navy Armed Guard on 24 January 1942.[21] United States policy was stated by the Vice Chief of Naval Operations on 19 August 1942: "Ships sailing independently should be armed. Ships sailing in regularly made-up convoys, other than ships bound to North Russia or tankers en route to the United Kingdom, may sail unarmed if the urgency of delivery of their cargo warrants it."[22]

The United States followed the British practice of a single large gun aft. Early United States installations included low-angle 4"/50 caliber guns (Mark 9) removed from old Wickes and Clemson class destroyers.[23] The first installations of dual-purpose 5"/38 caliber guns began in September, 1942, on new ships over 10,000 tons.[24] Victory ships carried a 3-inch gun on the bow, 20 mm machine gun tubs port and starboard between the first and second holds; a 2nd pair of 20 mm guns on the bridge wings, a 3rd pair on the after edge of the superstructure, and a 4th pair between the after (Number 5) hatch and the 5"/.38 caliber gun on the stern.[25]


Many of the small bore rifles (3"-5") taken off of older BB's when they were modernized were used for this.
Hope this helped.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[Mark McShane]

Mark, where did you hear this? The Merchant Navy in the UK used whatever they could get their hands on - a whole variety of weapons - AND had to compete for it with the Royal Naval Patrol Service.

P_RK,

I spent most of yesterday trying to find one of the references that I read, it was either in a book or a survivors report that I read (that's covering a lot of ground I know). The guns were specicially the 4'' gun that would have been mounted aft. I am not talking about Hotchkiss strip guns, Orelikon guns or any other defensive ad-hoc armament placed on the merchant ships. I know that the 4'' guns for the AMC's came from the V & W class destroyers.

Regards,

Mark

[kgvm]

Mark, as far as I know initially only two AMCs got 4-inch guns.
While all other AMCs were armed with 6-inch guns and 3-inch guns, "Laurentic" and "Montclare" got seven 5.5-inch guns and three 4-inch guns each.

[Mark McShane]

Mark, as far as I know initially only two AMCs got 4-inch guns.
While all other AMCs were armed with 6-inch guns and 3-inch guns, "Laurentic" and "Montclare" got seven 5.5-inch guns and three 4-inch guns each.

Perhaps I should have said the 4'' that were assigned to be placed on the AMC's. In a report dated May 1939 there was a requirement to place 6, 7 or 8 6'' L.A. guns and 3 4'' H.A. guns or 3 2'' H.A. guns (depending on the size of ship) on each AMC.
Another paper written in October 1939 stating the outfit of each AMC only mentions 6'' guns only, although I have not found anything to back this up, it may be that the 4'' guns went to arming merchant ships.

Digressing slightly from my original question although just as interesting, I think I may have something shortly.

Regards,

Mark

[Mark McShane]

Result,

Link below answers my question.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_47-40_mk1.htm


Regards,

Mark

[Hoss]

The Japanese 3 inch, 40 cal. DP gun that armed many Japanese merchant ships was a copy of the British 12 pounder, 12 cwt DP gun, as well.

[Andy H]

This aside is hopefully of some interest.

The Admiralty reported in September 1937 that it currently had over 3,000 guns of 4" calibre or over, plus over a 1,000 18Pdrs ready for issue to merchant ships with increasing ammunition supplies.

These guns couldn't be fitted without the vessels being strengthened to accomodate the gun housing etc. The cost whilst the vesel was still being built was around £200, whilst over a £1,200 if fitted afterwards.

Britain had some 221 ships being built (over 500tons) at the time of the Admiralty report, and that it would be advisable to begin such strenthening now, rather than waiting for the outbreak of war, when the yards and men would be tied up on other war work.

Regards

Andy H