British at-mine?

[Juha Tompuri]

Hi,

Anyone able to recognize this at-mine?

Photo from Finnish Engineer museum, mentioned there to be British origin, bought to Finland during the Winter War.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1308630

Regards, Juha

[phylo_roadking]

First of all, a list of British WWII AT mines from David Boyd's excellent site;

A.T Mine G.S. Mk II
A.T Mine G.S. Mk III
A.T Mine G.S. Mk IV
A.T Mine G.S. Mk V

A.T Mine E.P. Mk II
A.T Mine E.P. Mk V
A.T Mine E.P. Mk VI

Here are his descriptions of the E.P. mines to get them out of the way first... http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php? ... &Itemid=59

A.T. Mine E.P. Mk II

These mines were mushroom shaped and detonation was caused by pressure forcing the plunger through the shear pin and down against the ampoule cartridge crushing the cartridge causing a chemical reaction which fires the detonator triggering the mine. Disarming the mine was not advised and it usually suggested that the mine be detonated in place. They cannot be reused.

A.T. Mine E.P. Mk V

Mushroom shaped, these mines were detonated with pressure on the mine cover forcing the plunger through the shear wire and down onto the ampoule cartridge, crushing it. The chemical reaction fires the detonator detonating the booster charge which detonates the main charge of the mine.

A.T. Mine E.P. Mk VI

Again mushroom shaped, detonation was caused by pressure on the mine cover forcing the striker though the shear wire, the striker spring then forces the striker into the percussion cap detonating the mine. To arm the mine the cover was removed, the mine was placed into position and the fuse inserted, the safety pin was then removed and the cover replaced

...in other words, all three types visually similar with a mushroom shped cap over an inner charge. Here is a pic of a rare surviving E.P. "mushroom" lid -



Painted (rusting) steel. It doesn't appear to be similar to any part of the above copper device, nor are there any mounting posts for the four catches on the edge of the mushroom. As all the E.P. mines were similar in design, I doubt the Finnish museum item is one of the E.P. types.

On to the G.S. mine types;

G.S. Mk II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Briti ... k_mine.jpg

G.S. Mk V



G.S Mk III

The Mk III again was cylindrical in shape but was taller and narrower than the Mk II mine,

...so similar to the cross-section shown above.

G.S. Mk IV

"Again cylindrical in shape..."

So that covers the common types. It's CERTAINLY not a Hawkins Mine.

[Juha Tompuri]

First of all, a list of British WWII AT mines from David Boyd's excellent site;

A.T Mine G.S. Mk II
A.T Mine G.S. Mk III
A.T Mine G.S. Mk IV
A.T Mine G.S. Mk V

A.T Mine E.P. Mk II
A.T Mine E.P. Mk V
A.T Mine E.P. Mk VI

Here are his descriptions of the E.P. mines to get them out of the way first... http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php? ... &Itemid=59

Does any of them fit to the timeframe 1939 - early 1940?
And as there were Mk II models, how about Mk I's?

A.T. Mine E.P. Mk II

These mines were mushroom shaped and detonation was caused by pressure forcing the plunger through the shear pin and down against the ampoule cartridge crushing the cartridge causing a chemical reaction which fires the detonator triggering the mine. Disarming the mine was not advised and it usually suggested that the mine be detonated in place. They cannot be reused.

A.T. Mine E.P. Mk V

Mushroom shaped, these mines were detonated with pressure on the mine cover forcing the plunger through the shear wire and down onto the ampoule cartridge, crushing it. The chemical reaction fires the detonator detonating the booster charge which detonates the main charge of the mine.

A.T. Mine E.P. Mk VI

Again mushroom shaped, detonation was caused by pressure on the mine cover forcing the striker though the shear wire, the striker spring then forces the striker into the percussion cap detonating the mine. To arm the mine the cover was removed, the mine was placed into position and the fuse inserted, the safety pin was then removed and the cover replaced

...in other words, all three types visually similar with a mushroom shped cap over an inner charge. Here is a pic of a rare surviving E.P. "mushroom" lid -



Painted (rusting) steel. It doesn't appear to be similar to any part of the above copper device, nor are there any mounting posts for the four catches on the edge of the mushroom. As all the E.P. mines were similar in design, I doubt the Finnish museum item is one of the E.P. types.

Is the photo of a E.P. lid or of a G.S. Mk II one?

According to this site (some ?) G.S. Mk II also contained non-ferrous metal

The mine is fitted with a thin brass cover, which acts as a pressure plate

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Mk_2_mine

Regards, Juha

[phylo_roadking]

Juha, the picture was originally attributed to being the "mushroom" lid of an E.P.-type mine when posted on the battlefront.com forum.

However, there is ONE big giveaway that it may NOT be; the "cover do not remove" legend - is a feature specifically noted against the G.S. MkII only on the MIAC mine munitions list.

GS MK 2(II) anti-tank mine Diameter: 190.5mm Weight: 3.8kg Explosive: 1.8kg Range: 400m Explosive/filler type: TNT
The mine body is cylindrical in shape. Passing through the center of the mine is a cavity for the insertion of the mine fuze. During ordinary shipping and storage, this cavity is closed by a shipping plug. A booster charge in a ring-shaped container is placed in this central cavity. The remainder of the mine is filled with the explosive main charge. The mine is fired when the weight of a vehicle overcomes the leaf spring under the cover and allows the cover to force down the top of the fuze. This mine is used as a defense against armored cars, tanks, or other vehicles. The mine will break tracks of light and medium tanks, and disable other vehicles. The Mine G.S. Mk II has three main components: loaded body, cover, and fuze. The mine cover fits over the body and is supported by a leaf spring. Pins on the sides of the mine body engage bayonet sockets in the cover. The cover of this mine must never be removed after the mine is armed. Words to that effect are stamped on the cover of the mine.

That stamped legend is not reported for any of the other G.S. types, and also is not mentioned against any of the E.P. types, so may originally have been mis-identified as an E.P.

Also, regarding the thin brass cover on the G.S. MkII - the crosssection of the diagram linked to on Wiki would indicate it does not resemble the Finnish museum article.

As for the G.S. MkI - it is noticably absent from the mine munitions list at MIAC, as is the E.P. MkI.

http://maic.jmu.edu/journal/supplementa ... ions.asp#G

Note also it's descriptions of the cover attachment features of the E.P-type's covers -

The Mine E.P. Mk II consists of three principal parts: the loaded mine body, the mine cover, and the mine fuzing arrangement. The mine cover is mushroom-shaped and is attached to the mine body by four hooked straps

The Mine E.P. Mk V consists of three principal components: the loaded mine body, the exploder mechanism, and the mine cover. The cover is fastened to the mine body by three pins, which engage slots provided in three retaining straps attached to the mine body

The Mine E.P. Mk VI consists of the following components: loaded mine body, fuze mechanism, and mine cover. The mine cover is fastened to the body by three pins which engage slots provided in three retaining straps attached to the mine body.

There is no sign of any of this mounting hardware anywhere on the Finnish museum item. That item seems to be a dome-shaped upper shell soldered to a flat bottom. Is that odd bung soldered onto the dome that looks like the cap of an old-style petrol can where the explosive was poured to set?

Regarding what was "period" in the British Army - the "Mines and Booby Traps Pamphlet No. 40" was superceded as needed by equipment change, as the cover would indicate - http://www.scribd.com/doc/12318626/Mine ... -No-401943

Thus we can definitely say the G.S. Mk V was in use by 1943,as it's in the 1943 edition, while WIKI references the "Anti-tank mines, Military Training Pamphlet No. 40 (1942)" as being the source for the diagram of the MkII, so it was still in use then.

[Juha Tompuri]

Juha, the picture was originally attributed to being the "mushroom" lid of an E.P.-type mine when posted on the battlefront.com forum.

I knew, but didn't believe in it.

Also, regarding the thin brass cover on the G.S. MkII - the crosssection of the diagram linked to on Wiki would indicate it does not resemble the Finnish museum article.

I don't know how professionally made that Wiki article is, but here a bit different kind of info from another site
G.S Mk II
A bit similar ( upgraded from Mk I?) mine body


E.P. Mk II
http://web.etel.ru/~saper/index-mines.html

As for the G.S. MkI - it is noticably absent from the mine munitions list at MIAC, as is the E.P. MkI.
http://maic.jmu.edu/journal/supplementa ... ions.asp#G

Yes, but here Mk I is mentioned to have existed:
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php? ... &Itemid=59

There is no sign of any of this mounting hardware anywhere on the Finnish museum item. That item seems to be a dome-shaped upper shell soldered to a flat bottom. Is that odd bung soldered onto the dome that looks like the cap of an old-style petrol can where the explosive was poured to set?

Not necessary petrol:

A.T. Mine E.P. Mk II

These mines were mushroom shaped and detonation was caused by pressure forcing the plunger through the shear pin and down against the ampoule cartridge crushing the cartridge causing a chemical reaction which fires the detonator triggering the mine

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php? ... &Itemid=59

On the side of the mine body near the base is located a channel which leads into the central well.
This channel is closed by a small metal tab during shipment and storage.

http://maic.jmu.edu/journal/supplementa ... ions.asp#E

Thus we can definitely say the G.S. Mk V was in use by 1943,as it's in the 1943 edition, while WIKI references the "Anti-tank mines, Military Training Pamphlet No. 40 (1942)" as being the source for the diagram of the MkII, so it was still in use then.

The timeframe is 1939 - early 1940.
I doubt either of Mk II were availlabe for export at that time, and according to the http://web.etel.ru/~saper/index-mines.html EP Mk.II originated 1941 in (E for) Egypt.

What types of AT-mines were produced in UK during the inter-war years?


Regards, Juha

[Simon K]

Could it be French?

[phylo_roadking]

The only two French early-war A.T. mines I know of are the M1935 (heavy) and M1936 (light) - and are rectangular in shape.

EDIT: if anyone has a copy of Anti Tank Mines , Military training Pamphlet No. 28 published in 1939, the predecessor to MTP No. 40, that should give a definitive list of early WWII British AT mines.

[phylo_roadking]

I don't know how professionally made that Wiki article is, but here a bit different kind of info from another site

I didn't refer to the Wiki article on the Mk2 mine, just to the diagram -

...the crosssection of the diagram linked to on Wiki...

Which on Wiki is subtitled

Description British Mark II anti-tank mine.jpg
A British Mark II anti-tank mine cutaway.

Source "Anti-tank mines, Military training pamphlet No.40, 1942, The War Office"

Date Circa 1942

Author British government

This artistic work created by the United Kingdom Government is in the public domain
This is because it is one of the following:

It is a photograph created by the United Kingdom Government and taken prior to 1 June 1957; or
It is a photograph or an engraving created by the United Kingdom Government and commercially published prior to 1959; or
It is an artistic work other than a photograph or engraving (e.g. a painting) which was created by the United Kingdom Government prior to 1959.

I think the provenance is acceptable.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Yes, but here Mk I is mentioned to have existed:
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php? ... &Itemid=59

Yes, I take it you mean

Code: Select all

                                1940    1941     1942    1943 1944 
Anti-Tank Mines Mk I + II         -   866,000  281,000    - 

Which would indicate that the MkI wasn't in production in the period we're discussing either - 1940....though of course we have no figures for pre-war mines or production. Therefore

EDIT: if anyone has a copy of Anti Tank Mines , Military training Pamphlet No. 28 published in 1939, the predecessor to MTP No. 40, that should give a definitive list of early WWII British AT mines

...applies
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Interestingly, while I can't read Russian, the list on http://web.etel.ru/~saper/index-mines.html for British mines doesn't list an A.T. EP or GS MkI either...

Мины Великобритании
Противопехотная мина 6 Mark1
Противопехотная мина "Рейнджер"
Противотанковая мина G.S.Mk.II
Противотанковая мина E.P.Mk.II
Противотанковая мина G.S.Mk.III
Противотанковая мина Mk.IV
Противотанковая мина G.S.Mk.V
Противотанковая мина E.P.Mk.V
Противотанковая мина G.S.Mk.Vc
Противотанковая мина E.P.Mk.VI
Противотанковая мина Mk 7
Противотанковая мина L9A1

[Juha Tompuri]

I don't know how professionally made that Wiki article is, but here a bit different kind of info from another site

I didn't refer to the Wiki article on the Mk2 mine, just to the diagram -

I have learned to be careful with the Wiki in general.

Yes, I take it you mean

Code: Select all

                                1940    1941     1942    1943 1944 
Anti-Tank Mines Mk I + II         -   866,000  281,000    - 

Which would indicate that the MkI wasn't in production in the period we're discussing either - 1940

I think that sort of facts can't be found there:

Production of mines by year (UK only, filled only) *no figures for anti-tank mines between December 1940 and May 1941,

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php? ... &Itemid=59
...nor earlier.
And the timeframe (1939 - early 1940) I earlier mentioned mentions the last possible date of manufacture.
The mines of course could (and might even quite possibly) have been manufactured earlier.

...though of course we have no figures for pre-war mines or production.

I wonder why the info about UK produced AT-mines seems to be so dificult to find?

Interestingly, while I can't read Russian, the list on http://web.etel.ru/~saper/index-mines.html for British mines doesn't list an A.T. EP or GS MkI either...

Me neither.
If the natives have difficulties in digging up info about them, how come it would be easier for the rest of us?



Regards, Juha

[phylo_roadking]

I wonder why the info about UK produced AT-mines seems to be so dificult to find?

In recent decades there's been a suprising ambivalence here to the fact that we used such nasty things/random killers as mines...let alone were one of THE largest manufacturers post-war and third-party suppliers to people/groups/nations with no scruples about using them OR about removing the "Made in the UK" stickers

Let's face it - we managed to hide ULTRA for nearly thirty years, and tried to expunge an entire AOC, Bomber Command after the war ...so what's the odd landmine between friends?

[phylo_roadking]

didn't refer to the Wiki article on the Mk2 mine, just to the diagram

-I have learned to be careful with the Wiki in general.

Well, if someone comes up with an appropriate year's copy of Mines and Booby Traps, Military Training Pamphlet No. 40 with that diagram in it, that should prove Wiki in this instance...

[Juha Tompuri]

In recent decades there's been a suprising ambivalence here to the fact that we used such nasty things/random killers as mines...let alone were one of THE largest manufacturers post-war and third-party suppliers to people/groups/nations with no scruples about using them OR about removing the "Made in the UK" stickers

Let's face it - we managed to hide ULTRA for nearly thirty years, and tried to expunge an entire AOC, Bomber Command after the war ...so what's the odd landmine between friends?

At this part of the world we are not that "touchy" about the issue (or at least not used to be):

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 29&start=0

Regards, Juha

[phylo_roadking]

Oh, nearly forgot - by "petrol cap" I didn't mean the jerrican over-lever type, I meant this sort of 1930's-40's-era item





...the kind that resulted in the jerrican becoming almost universal!

[Juha Tompuri]

Oh, nearly forgot - by "petrol cap" I didn't mean the jerrican over-lever type, I meant this sort of 1930's-40's-era item

I understood, but none of those, cap design more clearly seen here:
http://www.vintagecarparts.co.uk/fr/lis ... r+cap~cap/ http://www.vintagecollectibles.co.uk/petrol-cans.htm

...nor these:

http://members.chello.nl/b.voogd5/fuel_cans.htm

...or these do seem to match:
http://www.vintagegarage.co.uk/cans_a_d/aaa-d-index.htm


The construction of the "petrol caps" is totally different.


Regards, Juha

[Juha Tompuri]

Seems to be an Estonian mine:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1312362

EDIT: if anyone has a copy of Anti Tank Mines , Military training Pamphlet No. 28 published in 1939, the predecessor to MTP No. 40, that should give a definitive list of early WWII British AT mines.

Here you are: http://lexpev.nl/downloads/militarytrai ... es1939.pdf
http://lexpev.nl/index.html
But also at the booklet seems to be incomplete list of early WWII era used British origing AT-mines

Regards, Juha