Royal Navy Destroyers

Discussions on all aspects of the The United Kingdom & its Empire and Commonwealth during the Inter-War era and Second World War. Hosted by Andy H
User avatar
mescal
Member
Posts: 1415
Joined: 30 Mar 2008, 15:46
Location: France, EUR

Re: Royal Navy Destroyers

#16

Post by mescal » 10 May 2009, 21:29

Thank you.

@Max :
it's completely possible, it's just a filter in an excel spreadsheet. (However, I'm on the wrong computer right now, and I can't give you the number for dec41).
you
I have no problem sending any of the excel files by PM to anyone interested. I just hope that in case someone would re-use them, credits would be given accordingly.
However I keep my database private.
The British DD file is almost over, i'll send it to you in short order.

@ mimbrogno :
The wartime reporting was one often overlooked but essential task -- and for all services and all armies.
A huge lot of people were involved in the writing, classification, analysis ... of status report of all units during the war.
For example, regarding the British DD, I did a monthly table, but I assume that the real work was on a daily basis.
And a destroyer belonging to, say, Force H, sent everyday its status (including complement, ammunition status, machinery status, fuel and tens of other data...) to the Force H HQ; then it was most probably summarized and sent to the Med HQ, and then sent to the Admiralty.
Every HQ should have been able to also have a prospective look on the available ships within a few months in a given area (for example, the Admiralty did not, on 4th June 1944 ask : "Oh, BTW, how many DDs do we have to escort the invasion fleet and give fire support?", everything had been planned for months).
This implies taking into account the enemy activity, the probable mechanical problems, the availability of the dockyards ...

Actually, the reporting procedures would require another full dedicated topic.
Olivier

User avatar
mescal
Member
Posts: 1415
Joined: 30 Mar 2008, 15:46
Location: France, EUR

Re: Royal Navy Destroyers

#17

Post by mescal » 11 May 2009, 13:15

The O, P, Q, R & S classes

None of the units of those classes had been laid down by september 1939.
Those ships were the first of the War Emergency Programme, commissioned betweeen 1941 & 1943.

RN_DD_71.jpg
RN_DD_71.jpg (75.93 KiB) Viewed 1240 times
RN_DD_72.jpg
RN_DD_72.jpg (126.06 KiB) Viewed 1242 times
RN_DD_73.jpg
RN_DD_73.jpg (113.68 KiB) Viewed 1240 times

More to follow ...
Olivier


Mimbrogno
Member
Posts: 192
Joined: 24 Dec 2008, 02:54

Re: Royal Navy Destroyers

#18

Post by Mimbrogno » 11 May 2009, 20:17

mescal wrote:Every HQ should have been able to also have a prospective look on the available ships within a few months in a given area (for example, the Admiralty did not, on 4th June 1944 ask : "Oh, BTW, how many DDs do we have to escort the invasion fleet and give fire support?", everything had been planned for months).
Which is kinda my point exactly, Nobody was really concerned with what happens to one of your ships a month ago or even a week ago or less, all that command would be concerned about is the status of the ships as they are now. It would be like you or I doing our finances. We would keep up to date on our bank accounts to find out how much money we have and making sure all our debts are covered, then seeing how much money we can save or invest and then how much free spending money we have leftover. Once the day's over you don't give a thought to what your statements were yesterday, you're too busy focusing on the day ahead. It's not until it's time to do your taxes or year end statements that you realize just how much money you went through, and how you got it and how it was spent. You never realize just how much you have done until you stop to look back on it, and up till now I don't think anyone's ever done such a job of looking back on how the navies of WWII built and spent their ships as you have done now. That's why it's so amazing to see!

User avatar
mescal
Member
Posts: 1415
Joined: 30 Mar 2008, 15:46
Location: France, EUR

Re: Royal Navy Destroyers

#19

Post by mescal » 12 May 2009, 17:48

The T, U, V, W, Z & Ca Classes

Those are the last destroyers commissioned by the Royal Navy during the war, from 1943 on.
There is no chart for the years 1939 to 1941, as only a handful of those ships were laid down in the last week of 1941.
Given that most were commissioned after the war at sea had been won (at least in Europe), they did not suffer any loss and only a few hits.

RN_DD_82.jpg
RN_DD_82.jpg (97.38 KiB) Viewed 1189 times
RN_DD_83.jpg
RN_DD_83.jpg (128.16 KiB) Viewed 1190 times

The next and last part will deal with the 50 ex-US destroyers commissioned under the RN flag in late 1940.
Olivier

User avatar
mescal
Member
Posts: 1415
Joined: 30 Mar 2008, 15:46
Location: France, EUR

Royal Navy Destroyers

#20

Post by mescal » 13 May 2009, 09:23

The Ex-US Destroyers

These are the 50 destroyers transfered by the US Navy to the Royal Navy under the "Destroyers for bases" agreement.
They were old ships of the US Caldwell, Wickes and Clemson classes which dated back to ww1. They were thus unfit to accompany the main fleet, but were mostly used as convoy escorts in the Battle of the Atlantic.
Given their age, most suffered mechanical problems, and all of them were withdrawn from front-line duty when new escorts became available. 9 of them were transfered to the Soviet Navy in 1944.

They appear in the chart below by alphabetical order of their Royal Navy name - not their initial US name.
RN_DD_91.jpg
RN_DD_91.jpg (95.89 KiB) Viewed 1171 times
RN_DD_92.jpg
RN_DD_92.jpg (132.64 KiB) Viewed 1168 times
RN_DD_93.jpg
RN_DD_93.jpg (116.09 KiB) Viewed 1169 times


And it's over !!
Well ... at least for now, since I will probably post some more stats if anyone is interested ...
And I still have to do the same charts for the escort destroyers (but it will not be ready soon as I have not even begun to gather the data).

Hope it was of interest :-)
Olivier

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Royal Navy Destroyers

#21

Post by Sid Guttridge » 20 May 2009, 12:25

Hi Mescal,

Very interesting potential in your work.

I have a few questions:

1) Almost no destroyer log books have reached the National Archives. Where did you extract your information from?

2) I have looked at the West Indies station recently. I didn't find any RN destroyers based there and only a couple of RCN destroyers on rotation in 1940. However, you give 8. What do your stats represent? Do you mean that in 1940 there was an average of 8 destroyers in the West Indies or that during the year eight different destroyers were at some time deployed there?

Cheers,

Sid.

User avatar
mescal
Member
Posts: 1415
Joined: 30 Mar 2008, 15:46
Location: France, EUR

Re: Royal Navy Destroyers

#22

Post by mescal » 20 May 2009, 14:56

Hello Sid,


1) The main source I used are the record of movement that can be found at http://www.naval-history.net
Whenever possible, I cross-checked it with what I could find in books like Roskill's War at Sea or (for the destroyers) Blair's Hitler's U-Boat War or similar sources.
However, since these data are the output of a databse I've been feeding for months or years, I would be hard-pressed to explain why I put a given value 'X' for a given ship 'Y' on a given month 'Z'. I'm just sure that I only put any such data in the base once I was confidant enough it was reliable (which does not imply that everything is perfect or "true").

It must be remembered that this work is not supposed to be an original research; I just felt that a more synthetic and statistic presentation would be useful.
(Moreover, with ~15000 month.DD, any remaining non-systematic mistake quickly become insignificant when you build agregate views).


2) The value 8 for West Indies means that during eight month there was one destroyer here, or that during one month there was 8 DDs, or any combination inbeteween .
Actually the values for 1940 are the following, in number of DD per month :
RN_DD_WI_40.jpg
RN_DD_WI_40.jpg (23.33 KiB) Viewed 1135 times
These 8 month.DD were most probably ships in transit (from Canada West Coast to Atlantic) , or accompanying a heavier unit (return from Graf Spee Hunt IIRC).


Anyway, I'll soon post a general table representing the number of DD by area and by month
(a generalization of the excerpt above).
Olivier

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Royal Navy Destroyers

#23

Post by Sid Guttridge » 20 May 2009, 18:01

Hi mescal,

I very much approve of your form of presentation as it concentrates a massive amount of information into manageable format.

Many thanks. I shall find it most useful.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Have you ever been able to separate out those RN warships on the South America station from the South Atlantic generally?

User avatar
mescal
Member
Posts: 1415
Joined: 30 Mar 2008, 15:46
Location: France, EUR

Re: Royal Navy Destroyers

#24

Post by mescal » 05 Jun 2009, 15:35

Hello,

I have expanded the stats I posted in the table in the first post of this thread, to give a view on a monthly basis instead of a yearly basis.

The line entries are the same as in this first table ( U = Unavailable, T = Training, W = withdrawn, B = Building).
Regarding the buildings of new ships, there is a bias because I only took into account the ships that were commissioned before 15/08/1945. So I do not have any ship being built in august 45, whereas there actually were many ships under construction - the decrease in the building number is thus just artificial.

1939 to 1941 :
RN_DD_m_total_1.jpg
RN_DD_m_total_1.jpg (74.12 KiB) Viewed 1063 times
1942-1943 :
RN_DD_m_total_2.jpg
RN_DD_m_total_2.jpg (66.53 KiB) Viewed 1063 times
1944-1945 :
RN_DD_m_total_3.jpg
RN_DD_m_total_3.jpg (65.31 KiB) Viewed 1064 times


@Sid :
Sadly, I lack the data on the functionnal/administrative attachments of the ships. In the general case I only have their geographic location. In particular, I have absolutely nothing on the South America Station. I just suspect that there were very few ships attached to it
Olivier

Mimbrogno
Member
Posts: 192
Joined: 24 Dec 2008, 02:54

Re: Royal Navy Destroyers

#25

Post by Mimbrogno » 05 Jun 2009, 18:00

I really like those latest charts you put up, that gives a much better idea of what the overall force levels were in each area. I have just one thought though, do the statistics for ships being built mean the number of DD's being worked on, or just the number commisioned? The reason I ask is because if a ship is listed as "building" for longer than a month, it makes it difficult to determine the number of new ships that actually become available. If this is the case than I'd like to recommend changing the column for ships being built to show the number of ships actually commisioned in that month.

Great work once again!

User avatar
mescal
Member
Posts: 1415
Joined: 30 Mar 2008, 15:46
Location: France, EUR

Re: Royal Navy Destroyers

#26

Post by mescal » 28 Sep 2009, 12:37

Hello Mimbrogno,

The 'building' entry is actually the sum by column of the number of cells labeled "B" in the charts above. Hence it does not directly give the number of commissionning.
But I had it this way because it gave me the number of ships which are being built at any time (except for the end of the war, since I do not show the ships commissioned after august 1945).

Anyway, you'll find below a chart giving the number of commissioning by month :
RN_DD_comm.jpg
RN_DD_comm.jpg (33.35 KiB) Viewed 963 times
And here is are the cumulative losses and commissioning over the whole war :
RN_DD_cmm_vs_sink.jpg
RN_DD_cmm_vs_sink.jpg (34.18 KiB) Viewed 963 times
Note that the 50 ex-US destroyers are not taken into account in these two charts.
Olivier

User avatar
Andy H
Forum Staff
Posts: 15326
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:51
Location: UK and USA

Re: Royal Navy Destroyers

#27

Post by Andy H » 28 Sep 2009, 20:11

Hi Mescal

Many thanks for your time and effort you have put into your various tables.

I have a query over your building figures.

This (shortened) snippet is from First Lord of the Admiralty 3rd Monthly report, which covered the month of November 1939
24 ships (1A/C. 3 CL's, 5 SS's, 6 Escort vessels, 6 Patrol vessels, and 1 Minesweeper) have been laid down during November and 1 SS and a Boom Defence vessel have been launched. 1 Escort vessel and a further 2 of the 'L' class destroyers (that are to form the 5th Destroyer Flotilla), have been completed
Does your DD table include tother types of Escort vessels as well as DD's, or is it just a DD listing. If it is the latter do you have a actual named listing for these vessels?

Regards

Andy H

User avatar
mescal
Member
Posts: 1415
Joined: 30 Mar 2008, 15:46
Location: France, EUR

Re: Royal Navy Destroyers

#28

Post by mescal » 29 Sep 2009, 13:51

Hello Andy,

The building histogram deals only with the DDs.
The Escort vessels and Hunt-class destroyers as well as the ex-US DDs (Town-class) are out of the scope.
More precisely, it's an agregate view of all the ships listd in the charts numbered 11 to 83 above.

I do not know what the "2 L-class destroyers" in the quote from the Admiralty report refers to. I only have one destroyer laid down in nov. 1939 - it's HMAS Arunta.
The L-class (Laforey, Legion, ....) were all laid down between March 1938 and March 1939, launched between december 39 and early 1941, and the first one to be commissioned was HMS Legion in late december 1940.
(the three CL laid down are Charybdis, Argonaut & Black Prince and the CV is Indefatigable).


Note also that my monthly histogram has been made with "rounded" monthly data like in the chars above and is not necessarly perfectly precise.
For example, a ship actually commissioned on 29/11/1939 will have its "first availability month" in december 1939. So in my charts it will appear as a commissioning in december.
Thus this table should be seen as a global overview which indicates tendencies, and not the most precise possible representation of commissioning dates.
Olivier

User avatar
mescal
Member
Posts: 1415
Joined: 30 Mar 2008, 15:46
Location: France, EUR

Re: Royal Navy Destroyers

#29

Post by mescal » 03 May 2010, 12:42

Hello,

To complete the data presented above on the Royal Navy destroyers, I have finally made similar charts for the Hunt-class destroyers operated by the RN (and a few Allied navies - Greece, Free France, Norway, Poland).

The color and label codes are similar to those used previously, except that I now split the "Unavailable" category into three sub-categories :
"U" means unavailable due to routine maintenance,
"UA" means unavailable after an accident or any kind of non combat damage
"UD" means unavailable after combat damage.
RN_DE_11.jpg
RN_DE_11.jpg (97.62 KiB) Viewed 875 times
RN_DE_12.jpg
RN_DE_12.jpg (95.94 KiB) Viewed 875 times
RN_DE_13.jpg
RN_DE_13.jpg (74.91 KiB) Viewed 875 times
Olivier

User avatar
mescal
Member
Posts: 1415
Joined: 30 Mar 2008, 15:46
Location: France, EUR

Re: Royal Navy Destroyers

#30

Post by mescal » 03 May 2010, 12:45

In this post, the charts will deal with the second batch of Hunt-class destroyers
RN_DE_21.jpg
RN_DE_21.jpg (98.13 KiB) Viewed 875 times
RN_DE_22.jpg
RN_DE_22.jpg (129.35 KiB) Viewed 875 times
RN_DE_23.jpg
RN_DE_23.jpg (115.44 KiB) Viewed 875 times
Olivier

Post Reply

Return to “The United Kingdom & its Empire and Commonwealth 1919-45”