Unusual Halifax Turret

[Tomg44]

I recently came across this photo. The caption said it is the rear turret of a Handley-Page Halifax. The "Thing" which seems to be attached to the turret is not identified. Any info. would be appreciated.

[phylo_roadking]

That's odd - I can't quite tell if its centrally-mounted or offset to the aircraft's starboard.

[Takao]

It's a Automatic Gun Laying Turret, and, during WW2, was fitted to both Lancaster and Halifax bombers.


For further reference.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/hphalifax/guns.htm
Scroll down to the Type D turret.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_ ... ing_Turret

Discussion on the ww2aircraft.net forum
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviati ... -3372.html

[The_Enigma]

Intresting stuff although i wonder how did these turrets go about not shooting down British bombers behind them?

[phylo_roadking]

By being automatic gun laying, as opposed to automatic gun firing?

[The_Enigma]

As in it the points the gun in the right direct and bob pulls the trigger? Smart! .... but what happens if it points the gun at the wrong aircraft ... its dark ... maybe you cant see em?

[phylo_roadking]

No, I mean as in it DOESN'T do that - it lays the gun but the option to press the trigger is still strictly human

Regarding pointing at the wrong aircraft in the dark - I would assume this was a minimal issue, for RAF heavies only flew in grows of three etc. in the Bomber Stream anyway, not in a box formation. The Stream idea was to reduce the number of aircraft flying in formation, thus reducing the number of bombers ONE LW nightfighter could pick up on in one "pursuit".

[Takao]

British bombers were equipped with an Infrared signal lamp to identify themselves to "Village Inn" equipped bombers. Further measures were also taken to prevent firing on friendly aircraft.

see here http://www.bomberhistory.co.uk/49squadr ... %20Inn.pdf

scroll down to the bottom of page 2 and start at "Uncle Will" continues". This provides an excellent first hand account of a "Village Inn" equipped bomber in a combat situation.

[The_Enigma]

Cheers for that information guys. Firstly I was shocked to read that account, I never would have believed a bomber like the Lancaster could be thrown around so much fully loaded – one just pictures these things swanning along level unable to do much of anything. I think the problem might come from the film footage of the American bomber wings just sitting there and taking it – it was what I was expecting the RAF flew like, sort of.

I take it that the bomber stream is why these attacks lasted for so long during the night as they just kept coming over in small waves dropping their sticks?

[phylo_roadking]

I take it that the bomber stream is why these attacks lasted for so long during the night as they just kept coming over in small waves dropping their sticks?

Yep, some of the larger raids could actually involve 4-5hours of bombers overflying over the target.

The Bomber Stream plan was actually very simple in idea; the Kamhuber Line was a series of "boxes" on the map of Western Europe, and three (later four )rows of boxes "thick". An LW nightfighter would "linger" at fuel-saving cruising speed inside its own box - and its ground controller would task it to a target moving through is box. The fighter would then chase the target to build up speed and altitude to attack it...carry out it attack, successful or not....THEN it would have to return to its OWN box and take up position again!

A nightfighter could maybe only be tasked to a target three or four times in a flight....and any EXTRA manouvering involved in chasing an EVADING bomber at full war power would drain its tanks even faster, reducing the number of times it could be tasked on the rest of its sortie.

Therefore the aircraft picketing the "boxes" of the Kamhuber Line could only ever hope to intercept a given number of targets during a night atbest....and any random factors like increased fuel load or having to chase a bomber further than anticipated etc. would impinge on that mathematical formula. So what Bomber Command did was simply to stretch out in time terms how long that the bomber force would take to pass through the K-H Line...compared to a fixed fuel load on the fighters

[The_Enigma]

The Germans were mathmatically outwitted ..... :S

[Takao]

Yep, you got it in one The_Enigma,

That is Bomber Command's Operational Research Section doing their job of crunching numbers and coming up with a solution.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomber_stream and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_Research

[phylo_roadking]

well, not fully outwitted....

The tactic depended on Bomber Command being able to tolerate an "acceptable level" of casualties

[Takao]

Overwhelmed, as opposed to outwitted, would probably be a better term to use.