Boulton Paul Defiant - bombload???

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phylo_roadking
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Boulton Paul Defiant - bombload???

#1

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 May 2010, 00:03

The first P.82 protype of the Defiant apparently had the capability to carry "small bombs in recesses in the outer wing"...

So far I haven't come across anything on what size of bombs, how many....or if this feature was carried over into the production fighter. I have a feeling the answer must be no, but does anyone know anything more about that initial provision???

Here's an early publicity pciture of that first prototype K8310; as you can see, the factory artist's brush has been at work obscuring all sorts of detail!!! :lol:

Image

This MUCH better picture of K8310 still doesn't view the aircraft from quite the right angle to answer any questions...

Image
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Re: Boulton Paul Defiant - bombload???

#2

Post by Ironmachine » 08 May 2010, 09:41

What is your source, phylo? I have only seem this stated in wikipedia, and it refers to the design, not to the first prototype... So it is either a mistake, or perhaps this feature was eliminated before building the prototype. Certainly, in the pictures I have seen of the first prototype I could not find anything that ressembles those "recesses in the outer wing".
Anyway, it seems that this feature, if it existed, was not carried over into the production aircraft, for at least the first production Defiant, L6950, was tried with light bomb racks in 1939 (source: Boulton Paul Defiant, by Mark Ansell). In Turret Fighters - Defiant and Roc it is stated that No. 264 Squadron...
...practised dive bombing and ground strafing at Ordordness, a role for which the aircraft was equipped with light duty bomb racks, but which nonetheless seemed to be contrary to the basic concept of the turret fighter.
There is no data about the weight of the bombs, but there were four per wing, as can be seen in the pictures in the books:
bomb racks.JPG
bomb racks.JPG (46.85 KiB) Viewed 1871 times
Defiant bomber.JPG
Defiant bomber.JPG (30.77 KiB) Viewed 1871 times
Maybe this is a confusion between the "recesses" and the bomb racks, and between the prototype and the first production aircraft?
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Re: Boulton Paul Defiant - bombload???

#3

Post by The Edge » 08 May 2010, 13:26

...and I thought this plane was weird enough! :?

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Re: Boulton Paul Defiant - bombload???

#4

Post by Saxon Cross » 08 May 2010, 16:21

The Blackburn Roc carried 8 x 30lb bombs. The bomb rack in your photo looks like a Light Series Carrier, which could carry 4 x 20lb or 2 x 40lb bombs.

see this link:

http://freespace.virgin.net/john.dell/blackburn_roc.htm


A "light series carrier" bomb rack could be fitted under each wing. Each carrier could hold 4 x 20 lb Cooper bombs or incendiaries or 2 x 40 lb bombs or incendiaries. Some reference books mistakenly give the impression the light series bomb racks were only ever used for "practice" bombs.

from here:

http://freespace.virgin.net/john.dell/b ... n_skua.htm

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Re: Boulton Paul Defiant - bombload???

#5

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 May 2010, 17:48

I-M, it was the entry in Wiki first took my eye...and from the comment's position in the text I assumed it referred to the prototype - but that's why I was asking, did anyone know anything more... :wink: Thanks for pics and info on 264 Sqn., that makes the capability "operational" - tho' very very unlikely! :lol:

Interesting about the Light Series Carrier and the Cooper bombs - that means the Defiant could carry the same "bombload" per wing as the Army Co-op Lysander did under its fuselage.....
Some reference books mistakenly give the impression the light series bomb racks were only ever used for "practice" bombs.
...which DID carry out bombing sorties in France in May 1940.
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Re: Boulton Paul Defiant - bombload???

#6

Post by Ironmachine » 08 May 2010, 19:08

phylo_roadking wrote:Interesting about the Light Series Carrier and the Cooper bombs - that means the Defiant could carry the same "bombload" per wing as the Army Co-op Lysander did under its fuselage.....
The quote from Turret Fighters - Defiant and Roc from my previous post continues as follows:
Clearly the design had been seen as a possible army co-operation aircraft, and in January 1940 one Defiant, L6968, was sent for trials with the School of Army Co-operation at Odiham.
The Lysander was the standard army co-operation aircraft and represented the accepted thinking of the time, of low speed, short landing and good visibility. Before the rude awakening of the Blitzkrieg, when the Lysander's terrible vulnerability over the front line was exposed, the higher speed and better defensive armament of the Defiant was obviously being considered.

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Re: Boulton Paul Defiant - bombload???

#7

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 May 2010, 19:25

Hmmm....

Can't help wondering...given that the Defiant's turret could traverse downwards on either side of the fuselage...what kind of a mess the trainable four Brownings would have made of the un- or lightly-armoured engine deck of a PzI or II from above.... :wink:
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Re: Boulton Paul Defiant - bombload???

#8

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 May 2010, 20:31

Double "hmm"....

That ordnance load for the Defiant may yave beenh dictated backwards by its prospective use as an Army Co-op aiorcraft....for it certainly wasn't the load limit of the Light Series Carrier! 8O

On the Blackburn Roc...
...loads that each universal carrier could carry was listed in the pilots notes as either a 250 lb "B" or Semi-Armour Piercing (S.A.P.) bomb or a 100 lb Anti-submarine (A.S.) bomb or a bomb container.
!!! 8O

Now THAT would have made a very useful ordnance load for a fighterbomber in France in 1940!!! :lol:
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Re: Boulton Paul Defiant - bombload???

#9

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 May 2010, 21:56

phylo_roadking wrote: it certainly wasn't the load limit of the Light Series Carrier! 8O

On the Blackburn Roc...
...loads that each universal carrier could carry was listed in the pilots notes as either a 250 lb "B" or Semi-Armour Piercing (S.A.P.) bomb or a 100 lb Anti-submarine (A.S.) bomb or a bomb container.
The Roc could be fitted with a "universal carrier" under each wing along with "light series carrier" bombracks for light or practice bombs. The loads that each universal carrier could carry was listed in the pilots notes as either a 250 lb "B" or Semi-Armour Piercing (S.A.P.) bomb or a 100 lb Anti-submarine (A.S.) bomb or a bomb container.
Two 250 lb "B" or "SAP" bomb or 100 lb anti-submarine bomb could be carried (one beneath each wing) and a standard RAF light series carrier bombrack could also be fitted beneath each wing. Each carrier could hold 4 x 20 lb or 2 x 40 lb bombs or incendiaries. Thus the potential total bombload of the Roc was 660 Ibs.
emphasis on mine.
phylo_roadking wrote:I-M, it was the entry in Wiki first took my eye...and from the comment's position in the text I assumed it referred to the prototype - but that's why I was asking, did anyone know anything more... :wink: Thanks for pics and info on 264 Sqn., that makes the capability "operational" - tho' very very unlikely!
Probably very unlikely:
A babelfish translation
In the original specification for the Defiant there also a provision appeared which required that there also bommenrekken under the wings could be installed. In February 1940 this installation was tried out by L6950 that took part in tests for ground attacks and dive attacks at Orfordness. Another Defiant, L6968, were used for tests as a support plane for ground forces-. These tests must have gone fairly satisfying because No. 2 Sqdn became in august 1940 of a single Defiants foresee, but these were explained never operational and were rapidly withdrawn.
http://www.luchtoorlog.be/bpd.htm

Regards, Juha

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Re: Boulton Paul Defiant - bombload???

#10

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 May 2010, 22:13

The Roc could be fitted with a "universal carrier" under each wing along with "light series carrier" bombracks for light or practice bombs. The loads that each universal carrier could carry was listed in the pilots notes as either a 250 lb "B" or Semi-Armour Piercing (S.A.P.) bomb or a 100 lb Anti-submarine (A.S.) bomb or a bomb container.
Two 250 lb "B" or "SAP" bomb or 100 lb anti-submarine bomb could be carried (one beneath each wing) and a standard RAF light series carrier bombrack could also be fitted beneath each wing. Each carrier could hold 4 x 20 lb or 2 x 40 lb bombs or incendiaries. Thus the potential total bombload of the Roc was 660 Ibs.
Indeed. But what is MORE interesting is that a "Universal Carrier"...

Image

..the long bolted-on hardpoint holding the light supply container on the stubwing of a Lysander in this pic - uses the SAME wing mounting brackets as the Light Series Carrier beside it! These were designed for the RAF to be modular.

Image

Therefore if the Defiant had a pair of brackets to bolt on a Light Series Carrier...a "Universal Carrier" could be bolted onto one of those pair per wing as necessary. Not of course at the same time as the Light Series Carrier :D As you can see from the above pic, the Lysander actually has FIVE sets of brackets per stub wing, to be used in whatever combination for whatever; in this pic we can see THREE of them being used...

The physcial accoutrements are there to mount a "Universal Carrier" if they were there to mount a "Light Series Carrier" - we don't however know the maximum weight a Defiant could support on each wing...

EDIT: ...yet :wink:
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Re: Boulton Paul Defiant - bombload???

#11

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 May 2010, 22:34

phylo_roadking wrote:Double "hmm"....

That ordnance load for the Defiant may yave beenh dictated backwards by its prospective use as an Army Co-op aiorcraft....for it certainly wasn't the load limit of the Light Series Carrier! 8O

On the Blackburn Roc...
...loads that each universal carrier could carry was listed in the pilots notes as either a 250 lb "B" or Semi-Armour Piercing (S.A.P.) bomb or a 100 lb Anti-submarine (A.S.) bomb or a bomb container.
it certainly wasn't the load limit of the Light Series Carrier!
Any sourced info us that the light series carrier load being higher than here mentioned?
phylo_roadking wrote:..the long bolted-on hardpoint holding the light supply container on the stubwing of a Lysander in this pic - uses the SAME wing mounting brackets as the Light Series Carrier beside it!
Therefore if the Defiant had a pair of brackets to bolt on a Light Series Carrier...a "Universal Carrier" could be bolted onto one of those pair per wing as necessary.
Any sources or just your opinion?
phylo_roadking wrote:The physcial accoutrements are there to mount a "Universal Carrier" if they were there to mount a "Light Series Carrier" - we don't however know the maximum weight a Defiant could support on each wing...
...nor the lift-off or strongpoint strenght capability.
Without them - more or less AHF "what-if" section material.

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Re: Boulton Paul Defiant - bombload???

#12

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 May 2010, 22:52

..the long bolted-on hardpoint holding the light supply container on the stubwing of a Lysander in this pic - uses the SAME wing mounting brackets as the Light Series Carrier beside it!
Therefore if the Defiant had a pair of brackets to bolt on a Light Series Carrier...a "Universal Carrier" could be bolted onto one of those pair per wing as necessary.


Any sources or just your opinion?
My source is the picture. If you care to study it properly you can SEE that the wing brackets used to bolt on the two different types of Carrier are identical.
it certainly wasn't the load limit of the Light Series Carrier!
Any sourced info us that the light series carrier load being higher than here mentioned?
Here you are choosing to quote me out of context.

In the original version -
That ordnance load for the Defiant may yave beenh dictated backwards by its prospective use as an Army Co-op aiorcraft....for it certainly wasn't the load limit of the Light Series Carrier!
I'm NOT saying in this sentence that the load limit of the LSC was HIGHER....I'm saying it that it wasn't its standard load limit that had dictated what was used in the Army Co-op tests. The tests would have been carried out using the Army-Co-op's standard ordnance types.
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 08 May 2010, 23:35, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Boulton Paul Defiant - bombload???

#13

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 May 2010, 22:58

phylo_roadking wrote:Hmmm....

Can't help wondering...given that the Defiant's turret could traverse downwards on either side of the fuselage
Did they?
phylo_roadking wrote:As the Defiant's guns couldn't depress below horizontal
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... n&start=15

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Re: Boulton Paul Defiant - bombload???

#14

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 May 2010, 23:00

However....
Two 250 lb "B" or "SAP" bomb or 100 lb anti-submarine bomb could be carried (one beneath each wing) and a standard RAF light series carrier bombrack could also be fitted beneath each wing. Each carrier could hold 4 x 20 lb or 2 x 40 lb bombs or incendiaries. Thus the potential total bombload of the Roc was 660 Ibs.
Any sourced info us that the light series carrier load being higher than here mentioned?
For your information - the Mk1 Light Series Carrier or LSC does seem to be capable of carrying a higher load...http://users.cyberone.com.au/clardo/ble ... t.html#LSC
Capacity 4x40lb or 4x20lb bombs
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Re: Boulton Paul Defiant - bombload???

#15

Post by phylo_roadking » 09 May 2010, 02:50

And finally...
Hmmm....

Can't help wondering...given that the Defiant's turret could traverse downwards on either side of the fuselage
Did they?
phylo_roadking wrote:
As the Defiant's guns couldn't depress below horizontal
I see not being a native English speaker, you haven't noticed that "given that the Defiant's turret could traverse downwards on either side of the fuselage" is conditional on the "Can't help wondering", as in
Can't help wondering...given that the Defiant's turret could traverse downwards on either side of the fuselage...what kind of a mess the trainable four Brownings would have made of the un- or lightly-armoured engine deck of a PzI or II from above....
This was part of the WI aspect of the Defiant as prospective close air support aircraft. The sources I have at preent all point to historically it couldn't depress its guns below the horizontal. But here I wasn't talking about the historical, hence the word "wondering".
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