Strengthened No.1 Rifle

[Andy H]

Whilst reading throught the lists of small arms carried aboard British N Class Destroyers its lists the following:-

29 x No.1 rifles
2 x No.2 rifles
20 x pistols (Revolver No.1)
10 x Naval swords
1 x .303in line-throwing rifle
4 x Mk3 signal pistols
2 x stripped lewis guns
1 x tripod mounted Vickers .303in medium MG
AND
1 X strengthened No.1 rifle

Can anyone shed some light on this last item please

Regards

Andy H

[phylo_roadking]

Andy, a wire wrapped-forestock No.1 rifle was needed to use an EY Cup The blank round used to throw a Mills Bomb was charged with more propellant than a normal .303 round and when used with the Extra Yards cup it wasn't unknown for the barrel to burst! As I'm sure you know - the EY Cup was really a semi-permanent attachment, so it made more sense simply to convert a rifle and use it exclusively for that.

I would assume that if there was a strengthened No.1 on board, there was a box of No.36 Grenades and screw-in baseplates about somewhere on board too...

THIS i find interesting...

2 x stripped lewis guns

Does this mean stripped to a box of bits....or minus the air-cooling jacket? As per RAF use...

[Andy H]

Hi Phylo

Thank you for the information on the query, appreaciate it.

Regarding the question yoy had about the stripped down Lewis.
Though it was listed amongst the small arms detail, with further eading its also obvious that these weapons were also intended for ship use. Not that they were effective but more a morale weapon in that they gave the crew a feeling of being able to fight back.

Regards

Andy H

[phylo_roadking]

Andy, was this specific list "standard issue"? Because there's another little funny in there now that I look more closely...

29 x No.1 rifles
2 x No.2 rifles

....any idea why?

[Andy H]

Andy, was this specific list "standard issue"? Because there's another little funny in there now that I look more closely...

29 x No.1 rifles
2 x No.2 rifles

....any idea why?

Hi Phylo

I couldn't tell you if it was specific as the information is listed within the appendices concerning the J,K & N class DD's After going through the rather specific details one associates with naval ships-equipement, performance, ammunition, machinery,armament, TT's, D/C's and AA, it lists Small Arms-as per my first post

Regards

Andy H

[verdenpark]

Rifle No.2's are No.1 Mk.I series rifles converted to .22 calibre, and used for training and practise. This was to do with the cost of ammunition.

The Lewis guns were included to give landing parties an automatic weapon, and for use against small craft that did not warrant the use of the heavier weapons on board. Stripped means the blocks were stored separately from the weapon.

The ammunition for the EY rifle was the standard blank round. The reinforcing was required because the rifle grenade had a steel rod that was placed down the barrel, thus increasing the chamber pressure well above normal. The ones I have seen also have a tranverse bolt through the fore end, about halfway along. I will try and find my books on the S.M.L.E. and give details.

[The_Enigma]

10 x Naval swords

Who cares about the rifles, this is the most intresting bit ... ships and swords!!! Now are we talking farty little daggers/bayonets or proper pirate swords?

[phylo_roadking]

Wll...didn't the Cossack's boarding party carry cutlasses when they boarded the Altmark? They have this disturbing tendancy to kill people...silently...

(well, unless the person decides to die noisily! )

[verdenpark]

Wll...didn't the Cossack's boarding party carry cutlasses when they boarded the Altmark? They have this disturbing tendancy to kill people...silently...

(well, unless the person decides to die noisily! )

I seem to remember that the crew of a R.N. destroyer captured an Italian ship during Matapan with cutlass. The Italians were so upset about this, that they surrendered. Of course they were half tanked at the time, after finding the ward rooms grog supply. I do not know of any others boardings with the cutlass.

I do remember visiting a R.A.N. frigate during the mid or late '80's, and seeing a cutlass as part of a weapons display. We were told at the time that it was there for display purposes only, but have since been told otherwise by ex navy people.

[The_Enigma]

Woot! I can only hope they went onto Altmark via swinging ropes donning their uniform of eyepatches etc! See war is fun!

[phylo_roadking]

The ammunition for the EY rifle was the standard blank round. The reinforcing was required because the rifle grenade had a steel rod that was placed down the barrel, thus increasing the chamber pressure well above normal. The ones I have seen also have a tranverse bolt through the fore end, about halfway along

.

Actually, a special blank round was developed for the EY cup - containing a full 30 grains of ballisite. These rounds were marked with blue paint on the end of the crimp - and were usually issued in a tin pocket can about the size and shape of a tobacco tin. Verdenpark, its not impossible that the Australian experience WAS different, there were more than a few variations - for example, I've seen film of Indian troops in WWI using a completely different kind of "cup"...actually a "basket" of metal straps...that would have allowed the Mills Bomb to be set in place THEN the pin pulled! FAR more practical...

The transverse woodscrew was one approved way of holding the rifle together, dating from early 1918 but by WWII TWO extra sets of bindings on the woods were normal (I.D. Skennerton The Lee-Enfield Story).





When you're talking about a rod down the barrel - do you not mean the No.23 Mills Bomb rather than the No. 36?



The No.36 sat in and was discharged from the EY Cup by a baseplate screwed into the base of the grenade...



....that was screwed into the threaded hole in the base plug -

[verdenpark]

That is a beautiful looking rifle with Walnut furniture. The Australian rifles were stocked up in Coachwood (softer than Walnut), or less commonly, Queensland Maple (very brittle). Both timbers were reinforced with brass threads from new. Repairs were also carried out with these threads, especially on the Maple stocks. The EY rifles were reinforced in the same manner as in the photo, but used heavier fixings to make up for the weak timber. If I remember rightly, the cup used here was a half basket type, which supposedly allowed the weapon to be used as a normal rifle. I do not know what mark of grenade was used with it, but suspect the Mk.23. Again, if I remember correctly, trials were conducted on the full cup as shown above, but it was rejected for some reason.

I still have not found my books on the "smelly" as yet. One more place to look.

[verdenpark]

I have finally found my books. Never let anyone clean up your office. You can never find anything afterwards.

The reference I am using is 'The British Service Lee' by Ian Skennerton, ISBN 0 9597438 8 X, printed in 1987.

The only reference to Naval use of rifle grenades for the period in question are for No.s; 31 Mk.IV(D.Sig.), 32 Mk.III(N.Sig.), 36M(H.E.), and 64(D.Sig.). All of these are for the cup discharger No.I.

As for cartridges, the 30gn.s Ballistite (what exactly is Ballistite?), or H Mk.I, seems to have been used with the cup dischargers up until 1928. From then it appears that the H Mk.II(43gn.s Cordite), originally for rodded grenades, was used. Other cartridges were the H Mk.III(29gn.s pistol Cordite, for the tropics), H Mk.IV(39gn.s Cordite or N.C.), two types of H Mk.V(Cordite, for India), and the H Mk.VII(30-35gn.s N.C.).

Appologies. I was wrong about us not using the No.I cup. I knew there was a discharger that was tried and rejected, but it was not a cup. It was a detachable spigot for the No.I rifle. An utter failure apparently. It seems things were so bad here that they used anything they could lay their hands on. Including W.W.I relics. Says alot about the political thinking of this country at the time.

[phylo_roadking]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistite hmm, an interesting tale!

[verdenpark]

Interesting indeed, Sir. If I have read this rightly, Ballistite, as used in the british context, was one of the early form of Cordite (there was much experimentation over two decades to perfect this).