6th Australian Infantry Division in 1941

[David W]

Gentlemen.

Am I correct in assuming that when the 6th Australian Infantry Division went into combat in early 1941, that it had been converted from the Australian "4 small Battalions per Brigade" structure, to the "British" "3 larger Battalions per Brigade"?

[verdenpark]

Not sure what do you mean by "small Battalion". The nominal strength of a 2/A.I.F. Battalion was 850 men, split into 4 rifle companies and a H.Q. wing. Initially there were 12 Battalions in 3 brigades, per Division, but this was reduced to 9 in 1940. Battalion organization was not altered until late 1943, when it was increased to 900 men for standard work, and reduced to 825 for the jungle.

The smaller Militia Battalions went through far greater changes, ending up the same as the A.I.F. Battalions (on paper anyway).

[Zabs82]

nitially there were 12 Battalions in 3 brigades, per Division, but this was reduced to 9 in 1940

Why 2 A.I.F. commanders change 4 to 3 battalions per Brigade ? Australia as a country couldn't mobilise enough battalions of volunteers to form four brigades , each one consist foru battalions ?

[Brad Hunter]

IIRC, each Brigade had three rifle battalions and an MG battalion (an organization similar to that used during WWI). The brigade-MG battalions were disbanded, and the divisions restructured to more closely resemble British Infantry Division structure.

Brad

[Zabs82]

IIRC, each Brigade had three rifle battalions and an MG battalion (an organization similar to that used during WWI).

IIRC in 1939 16th Australian infantry had four infantry battalions. 2/1, 2/2, 2/3 and 2/4 nad MG battalion ( 2/1 ?) independent unit.

[David W]

Not sure what do you mean by "small Battalion".

I'm sure that I saw something on the "DiggerHistory" website showing a smaller establishment in the 4 Battalion format than the "Standard" 3 British Battaalions.

[verdenpark]

The 'DiggerHistory' website must be confussing the 2/A.I.F. Battallions with the Militia ones. Easily done if you are not sure of units your looking at.

There was only one M.G.Battalion per Division. Brigades had four Battalions, one Field Engineering company, and supposedly, one gun Battery. Not sure if the last was ever present though.

Not sure where Zabs82's is get his info from. By December 1939 there were too many volunteers for the 6th.Div., so they formed the 7th.

The info I have seen on the Divisional re-organization seems to indicate that it was purely to conform to British standards. After the re-shuffle there were enough units to form the 9th. Division.

[David W]

OK.
How about equipment? I have heard that they were short of 2 pounders....

[The_Enigma]

I was under the impression once they got to the Middle East they were requipped, or brought up to strength in regards to equipment from British stockpiles?

[Brad Hunter]

The 'DiggerHistory' website must be confussing the 2/A.I.F. Battallions with the Militia ones. Easily done if you are not sure of units your looking at.

There was only one M.G.Battalion per Division. Brigades had four Battalions, one Field Engineering company, and supposedly, one gun Battery. Not sure if the last was ever present though.

Not sure where Zabs82's is get his info from. By December 1939 there were too many volunteers for the 6th.Div., so they formed the 7th.

The info I have seen on the Divisional re-organization seems to indicate that it was purely to conform to British standards. After the re-shuffle there were enough units to form the 9th. Division.

I stand corrected.

Brad

[David W]

I was under the impression once they got to the Middle East they were requipped, or brought up to strength in regards to equipment from British stockpiles?

Can anyone confirm this?

[verdenpark]

On arrival, equipement was very short in supply. Especially for the 7th. Div.. Artillery was 18 and 60 pounders, with some 4.5" Howitzers. A.T. guns were non existant. In the rifle companies, there were no A.T. rifles, or M.G.'s. In most Battalions the only automatic weapon was a handfull Vickers guns.

So Britian had to supply L.M.G.'s, Boys A.T.R.'s, 2pdr. A.T. guns, and 25pdr. artillery, and training in their use before the 6th. and 7th. Div.'s could be used. That must have been a hell of a strain on resourses available to the British. Pressure did eventually ease as production in Australia started to get into full swing though.

[Peter H]

As covered above,the initial 6th Division raised in 1939 had 12 infantry battalions in 3 brigades.This was because it was dependent on horsed transport.In November 1939 the 1938 British battalion establishment was adopted,meaning the new division hence was motorised,reducing to 9 infantry battalions.Battalion strength was also reduced from 902 to 792 men,a loss of manpower offset by an increase in firepower.

The 1938 British battalion consisted of four infantry companies,and a HQ company(6 specialist platoons and a battalion HQ).The rifles companies were orginally identified as Ace,Beer,Charlie and Don.In 1942 a new phonetic alphabet was adopted---A became Able,B Baker and D Dog.Some Australian members of Don companies became upset being refered to as 'Dogs',a negative connotation in Australian slang.

[Peter H]

One major Australian criticism of the 1938 British battalion structure was that it removed heavy calibre weapon support from under the control of the Battalion commander.

For example in Greece in 1941 each battalion only had two 3 inch mortars,a similar German battalion was equipped with six mortars of similar calibre.At the Pintos Gorge the lack of organic Vickers MGs was felt when advancing Germans could not be engaged by machine gun fire.Brens were available but the Germans were beyond their range.After the Greek campaign Dougherty called into question the MG Battalions now holding all heavy MG assets and suggested that "the old system of machine-gun companies should be re-established".

Thats another reason why in North Africa much use was made of captured Italian light guns,AT guns and MGs.It returned heavy and automatic fire control to the infantry commander.

[David W]

So to summarise....

6th Div arrived short of equipment, especially heavy weapons.
But was fully equipped by the time it went into battle.
OK?