Light Tank MKVI C

[David W]

A side discussion in the A13 thread in this section raised the question as to whether any Light Tank MkVI C ever made it to North Africa, and with which Regiment(s)?

I have always assumed that the answer was "Yes", but just lacked any proof.
But now I am not so sure.
I have seen plenty of evidence of both the MkVI A & Bin N.A.
And I have seen the C in the Med, at Malta.

Can anyone confirm or deny?

[dor1941]

David

With my focus on Crusader I remember a post by Brad Hunter dated 10-06-06 in which he mentioned Mk VI C lights in both 42nd and 44th Royal Tanks of the 1st Army Tank Brigade in November '41-it was in your own topic of 42nd R/T/R. The source Brad cited was Hughes, "British Armies of WW2-An Organizational History" (?), but I haven't seen this source and can't confirm the numbers and types of tanks he provided.
I also would be interested in confirmation of Hughes' figures.

David R

[verdenpark]

I have found a reference to the Mk.VIB in the Western Desert, but no mention of the 'C' being there. The only info I have is that it was armed with 15mm and 7.92mm Besa machine guns. The photo in the book shows a pair of them on airfield patrol, somewhere in England in 1941.

[David W]

David R.

Well spotted!

I guess that at the time, I was looking for Matilda/Valentine breakdowns, and didn't really notice the MKVI C lurking there as well.
Hugh's work isn't the most reliable, so I would seek a confirmation, just to be on the safe side.

[Ironmachine]

Additionally, this link
http://stonebooks.com/archives/010318.shtml
has an order of battle (but also taken from The British Armies in World War II: An Organisational History, Supplement One: Orders of Battle, 1939-1941 by Ryan, David A.; David Hughes; and James Broshot) for Operation Brevity in which the 4th Royal Tank Regiment (A and C Squadrons) is shown with 5 Mk VIC Light tanks.
Regards.

[phylo_roadking]

David, the war dirary for 3rd County of London Yeomanry, a constituent part of 22 Armoured brigade, lists 18 MkVICs on strength in the UK as of the 1st of June 1941 - two months before their posting overseas.

The Yeomanry's war diary for JULY is missing....and a note in the diary for the start of August says -

13/8/41 All vehicles not being taken abroad by the Regiment removed by RASC.

Once again October 's diary is missing, so there's no record of exactly what they mustered in the Delta - and after that there's no mention of the VICs again at all; I would infer from that that they left their VICs and some other equipment behind in the UK.

[phylo_roadking]

David, regarding the above....

http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/20 ... -crusader/

This information is from the war diary of 3 County of London Yeomanry, one of the three regiments in 22 Armoured Brigade. The strength shown is that of 26 October, three weeks before the operation started, and is at or close to full complement.

Manpower:
39 Officers, 584 other ranks
A Echelon (fighting) vehicles – 62
52 Cruiser Mk.VI and Mk.VIa (A15 Crusader) tanks
10 scout cars (Daimler)

B Echelon (services) vehicles – 109
68 3-ton lorries
20 15 cwt-trucks
8 utilities (presumably normal passenger cars?)
4 15-cwt water tankers
2 8-cwt trucks
1 15-cwt office truck
1 w/t van (wireless transmission, i.e. radio)
2 3-tonner fitters lorries (trucks carrying tools for mechanics)
1 solo motorcycle
2 motorcycles with sidecars

The scout cars were used for communications service during wireless silence periods and sometimes for patrols. My guess is they took the part that in Europe a dispatch rider on a motorcycle would have taken (motorcycles not being very mobile in the desert)

They DID leave their MkVIcs in the UK

[Urmel]

4 RTR war diary (and from memory, 1 RTR) do not state what type of light tank they field in November 41.

[phylo_roadking]

No it doesn't, Tom looked into 4 RTR's strength for David last year - http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1489236

[David W]

Thanks for your input guys. Keep looking!

[Urmel]

In 1940 7 RTR reports sub-type only for one of its Mk.VI, and it's a VIb.

[phylo_roadking]

There might be an easier way to do this; there were only 130 built...if we could find out how many were lost in France, we shouldn't actually be left with many more to account for

The just over 20 that 22 Armd Bde used BEFORE being posted to the Delta is a big chunk of that 130, for instance...

[dor1941]

Also in this Forum (in this Section) you will find a post dated 01-01-08 by Michael Kenny (crediting Charles Markuss for the information) citing the "Royal Armoured Corps Half-yearly Progress Reports, courtesy of the Bovington Tank Museum" which lists AFV "Wastage 3/9/1939 -23/12/1942" for all Theaters (and other periods), and under "i. Middle East" is recorded the light tank losses from all causes. This section states those losses as "Light Tanks: IIA 3, IIB 2, III 3, VI 27, VIA 86, VIB 113, VIC 9 [training machines in ME only-saw combat only in France 1940-CM], VIAA 7, Stuarts 372, various 10. Total 632".
I just knew I had seen this on the Forum somewhere
This indicates there were indeed Mk VIC in the Middle East, but with the caveat that they were not in combat (?)
What do you make of this?

For phylo_roadking's benefit, the losses in France 1940 are listed (at the bottom appendix) as "Mk VIB 345, Mk VIC 62".

David R

[David W]

Sounds pretty convincing to me!
Well done, well spotted

[Tom from Cornwall]

42 RTR were issued with Mk VIC in UK according to war diary quoted in a Mil Modelling article. The trouble is that when they went to Middle East, the ships with tanks went through Med, while the troops ships went round Cape. So I don't think they ever met up again. I think this was the 'Tiger' convoy, and the tanks were distributed to 4 and 7 RTR!Whether that was just the Matildas or the light tanks as well is anyone's guess.

Will have a better look at the article tonight.

Regards

Tom