Proposed usage of Gas by RAF to counter Seelowe

[Andy H]

Further to the idea of Tiger Moths being used to counter Seelowe in Op Banquet
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4&t=139680

I though this might be of interest

Regards

Andy H

[phylo_roadking]

Andy, very interesting; I assume this was in addition to the Operation BANQUET converted trainers.

A couple of interesting things in there....

1/ Confirmation of what I've mentioned before from Brian Lavery, that a quite small number of squadrons was made available for Army Cooperation in the anti-invasion plans; likewise ....

2/ confirmation of what Lavery says about any other duties impacting severely on their ability to drop enough H.E. on the invaders!

3/ That the Army Coop squadrons initial gas option was for spraying; pre-filled gas munitions, I.E. bombs, were only available in small numbers and for the Battles/Blenheims only.

"S.C.1 containers"? Are those the long sausagelike containers that the RAF's Army Coop aircraft could drop filled with stores/medicines etc.?

[phylo_roadking]

Also...

I wonder if the shortage of prefilled munitions for the Battles and Blenheims was because of the stocks that were prepositioned for BANQUET?

[Gooner1]

Also...

I wonder if the shortage of prefilled munitions for the Battles and Blenheims was because of the stocks that were prepositioned for BANQUET?

Hardly likely that there would be a shortage of gas cannisters for the bombers because the RAF were keeping them back for the trainers!

[Gooner1]

Good find Andy, do you happen to know the date of the document, I couldn't see it anywhere.

The RAFs obvious reluctance to begin using gas I find quite comforting.

[phylo_roadking]

Hardly likely that there would be a shortage of gas cannisters for the bombers because the RAF were keeping them back for the trainers!

No, not the SC1 canisters....the prefilled munitions I.E. bombs

The RAFs obvious reluctance to begin using gas I find quite comforting

Reluctance for the Bomber Command/Army Coop squadrons to use it....for good operational reasons The "Banquet Bombers", the converted trainers however...? Remember the Fighter Command standing orders to invasion had protection of the Banquet Bombers right up there in priority with protecting the BC/Army Coop squadrons ingoing...

I also noticed the lack of a date; I assume however that this is from the early summer...as ICI were instructed by Winston on the weekend of 30thJune to produce a tonnage of Mustard immediately, and keep a number of factories ready to start produce more immediately it was asked for...hence the caveat that suficient stocks of gas and munitions would start appearing later...

(This was the weekend IIRC Winston toured the Kent Coast, saw the state of defences (poor!), had dinner with the commander of the 1st Canadian Division etc. and also ordered the creation of the Auxiliary Units...)

[Gooner1]

No, not the SC1 canisters....the prefilled munitions I.E. bombs

2. (c) 'ample reserve stocks of bombs' for the Battles and Blenheims but 1. (c) None issued for the Lysanders

Reluctance for the Bomber Command/Army Coop squadrons to use it....for good operational reasons The "Banquet Bombers", the converted trainers however...?

Good operational reasons not to use the Banquet Bombers at all of course

but 4. (a) Air Ministry say it is not the present policy that squadrons should stand by to use gas against initial enemy landings.

[Andy H]

Good find Andy, do you happen to know the date of the document, I couldn't see it anywhere.

The RAFs obvious reluctance to begin using gas I find quite comforting.

Hi Gooner

These docs are from AIR 20/4326 a mish mash of some 21docs put together by a Group Captain Stafford from Central Combined Operation Room, Home Forces. I will post the remaining docs in seperate 'themed' threads in the coming hour or so. The dates of the docs range from July to Dec '40, there as vague as that in places.

I think you asked somewhere if I had been to Kew, well yes I have but these docs are from a lost CD recently found from a trip I made back in June'08

Regards

Andy H

[phylo_roadking]

Andy, given the existence of BANQUET, I think the emphasis there should read -

4. (a) Air Ministry say it is not the present policy that squadrons should stand by to use gas against initial enemy landings.

Banquet bombers dropping gas would of course interfere in no way with Bomber Command's/ Army Coop's tactical conventional bombings ops. BOTH sets of operations, conventional bombing and BANQUET, could continue side by side....what affects tactical bombing is the tactical bombERS maybe changing over to dropping gas in extremis, as the document discusses.

(c) 'ample reserve stocks of bombs' for the Battles and Blenheims but 1. (c) None issued for the Lysanders

The light bombs the Lysander could have carried on its little winglets would have been the same size of light ordnance stockpiled for the prefab' Light Series Carrier racks for BANQUET aircraft...the size of Cooper bombs.

Then again - the Lysander had already showed itself to be pretty hopeless as an Army Coop bomber in France - so its possible that they weren't planned to drop ANY ordnance, not just gas! Lavery mentions them when discussing Army Coop plans, I'll have to check.

[Gooner1]

Banquet bombers dropping gas would of course interfere in no way with Bomber Command's/ Army Coop's tactical conventional bombings ops. BOTH sets of operations, conventional bombing and BANQUET, could continue side by side....what affects tactical bombing is the tactical bombERS maybe changing over to dropping gas in extremis, as the document discusses.

So 5 (g) "It is therefore considered that we should concentrate entrely on H.E. bombing as being most likely to lead to the destruction and defeat of enemy landing forces - and that we should not attempt to use gas from the air." should have added "except when being sprayed or dropped by trainees in Tiger Moths"

[phylo_roadking]

5 (g) "It is therefore considered that we should concentrate entrely on H.E. bombing as being most likely to lead to the destruction and defeat of enemy landing forces - and that we should not attempt to use gas from the air." should have added "except when being sprayed or dropped by trainees in Tiger Moths"

Well, it's a document dealing with the gas deployment role...or not...of the RAF's tactical and Army Coop forces - as it says, its Lysanders, battles and Blenheims. It's not dealing with BANQUET....

[phylo_roadking]

Going back to the very first page Andy posted up - it's interesting to see that the stock of half-sized 250lb SC1 containers for Lysanders was limited; there had been a stock of these sent to France by April 1940...and I presume these were lost?

Also - by the time this report was written Blenheims had been adapted to carry SC1 and SC2 containers; this adaption had not begun as of April 1940, when it was recognised in the B.E.F. that the Battle, tho' its pilots had trained in gas spraying before leaving England, was an unsuitable aircraft for doing so Hence the speedy conversion of the Blenheims...

(The above details from WO 197/72)