Infantry Mortars
Re: Infantry Mortars
I could be wrong, but I think the U.S variant of the 4.2" mortar (or perhaps the ammo) is a different beast than the Commonwealth.
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Re: Infantry Mortars
David W wrote:Anyone got any idea of the weights of the three different mortar rounds (2", 3" & 4.2") and how much amotol was contained within each?
2 inch Light Mortar
Deployment: 1938
Length 65 cm
Weapon wt: 10.65 kg (airborne version 4 Kg)
Bomb wt: 1 kg
Range 500 yards
3 inch Medium Mortar (ML)
Deployment: 1920s
Length: 130 cm
Weapon wt: 57 Kg
Bomb wt: 4.5 Kg (compare to other mediums: German: 3.5 Kg; US: 3.1 Kg)
Early range: 1600yds
Long range: 2800yds (called the LR or Mk II, Dec 1943)
4.2 inch Heavy Mortar
Deployment: July 1942
Length: 64 - 68 inches
Weapon wt: 324 lbs
Bomb wt: 9.1 Kg
Early range: 3200 yards (July 1942, El Alamein)
Mid date range: 4400 yards (July 1943, Sicily invasion)
Late range: 5600 yards (June 1945)
The light 2 inch and medium 3 inch and heavy 4.2 inch were completely different weapons for different purposes.David W wrote:Am I right in thinking that the Light Infantry Mortars of 3" calibre replaced the 2"?
Or did the two co-exist?
Was the Heavy Infantry Mortar 4.2" used throughout WWII?
One was never intended to replace the other. They all co-existed once the heavy was introduced.
Saxon
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Re: Infantry Mortars
The 2 inch mortar is often said to have been primarily a smoke and flare (illumination) mortar; but just as many HE rounds as smoke rounds were produced (on demand) during the course of the war.
About 22.7 million 2 inch mortar HE rounds were made during the war, compared to 22.9 million 2 inch mortar smoke rounds (these were smoke rounds made for the infantry mortar, so does not include the 2 inch smoke rounds made for AFV 2 inch smoke dischargers).
2 inch HE rounds were often used with great affect, and I've seen medal citations which specifically noted the skilled use of a 2 inch mortar. Some blokes would even brace the thing against a building or tree and shoot the rounds horizontally.
Saxon
About 22.7 million 2 inch mortar HE rounds were made during the war, compared to 22.9 million 2 inch mortar smoke rounds (these were smoke rounds made for the infantry mortar, so does not include the 2 inch smoke rounds made for AFV 2 inch smoke dischargers).
2 inch HE rounds were often used with great affect, and I've seen medal citations which specifically noted the skilled use of a 2 inch mortar. Some blokes would even brace the thing against a building or tree and shoot the rounds horizontally.
Saxon
Re: Infantry Mortars
I remember reading about Canadian troops using the same technique at Ortana, with soldiers shooting out one upper story window across the street and into another.Saxon Cross wrote:Some blokes would even brace the thing against a building or tree and shoot the rounds horizontally.
Re: Infantry Mortars
Thanks Jon.
Delta Tank. That sounds like an awful lot of TNT for a shell weighing about the same as that of a 25Pdr, over four times a much, can that be right?
Delta Tank. That sounds like an awful lot of TNT for a shell weighing about the same as that of a 25Pdr, over four times a much, can that be right?
Re: Infantry Mortars
barrel pressures and muzzle velocities are MUCH lower in mortars than field guns.
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Re: Infantry Mortars
Some more information on the 2", 3" and 4.2" mortars, courtesy of the excellent coverage of British equipment on the WWII Equipment website
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php? ... &Itemid=59
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php? ... &Itemid=59
Re: Infantry Mortars
Thanks Saxoncross & Jabberwocky.
I'm still looking for the amount of H.E filler (T.N.T) in each round. (Where's Tony Williams when you want him? )
I'm still looking for the amount of H.E filler (T.N.T) in each round. (Where's Tony Williams when you want him? )
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Re: Infantry Mortars
Actually the 3 inch and 4.2 inch used Amatol 80/20 (so only had 20% TNT).David W wrote:Thanks Saxoncross & Jabberwocky.
I'm still looking for the amount of H.E filler (T.N.T) in each round. (Where's Tony Williams when you want him? )
What specifically do you need the filler weight for, what's the end use, because I may have the info you're looking for, from a solid War Office source.
Cheers,
Saxon
Re: Infantry Mortars
Just to compare the relative shell weight/H.E filler weight ratio.What specifically do you need the filler weight for, what's the end use, because I may have the info you're looking for, from a solid War Office source.
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Re: Infantry Mortars
That's it?David W wrote:Just to compare the relative shell weight/H.E filler weight ratio.What specifically do you need the filler weight for, what's the end use, because I may have the info you're looking for, from a solid War Office source.
I have a War Office document that has the results of scores of studies, which show the effectiveness of the various mortar rounds (including the 2 inch, 7.5lb and 10lb 3 inch, and 4.2 inch mortar rounds), indicating the percent chances for wounds/incapacitation at various radii (and sq ft effectiveness), and the effectiveness of each round on different types of terrain and cover; how much armour the fragments can penetrate at various ranges and so on.
Although the doc has filling types, it doesn't have weight.
Saxon
Re: Infantry Mortars
Actually, that would be very interesting, as I have only ever seen those in the past for artillery, starting with the 25Pdr & getting bigger. So something similar on the mortars would be great. Thanks.I have a War Office document that has the results of scores of studies, which show the effectiveness of the various mortar rounds (including the 2 inch, 7.5lb and 10lb 3 inch, and 4.2 inch mortar rounds), indicating the percent chances for wounds/incapacitation at various radii (and sq ft effectiveness), and the effectiveness of each round on different types of terrain and cover; how much armour the fragments can penetrate at various ranges and so on.
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Re: Infantry Mortars
Hi David,
I was asking what you needed specifically because I am willing to cherry pick info you need and post it; but I'm hesistant to share the whole document.
Over the years I have amassed a large collection of WW2 documents and info from various sources, and I often share these on various forums. I could potentially just upload my hard drive and make it all available, but much of this info required a lot of searching and was hard to come by.
I guess I'm saying tell me specifically what you want to know, and I will share what I've got; or if you want the whole document, I'd be willing to swap it for something
I may be interested in any WW2 doc you might have. I'm a WW2 wargamer, and my main interests are the European ground war and associated AFVs weapons/equipment. I have a particular interest in the British army, but also the German US and Soviet forces. I also love graphics of vehicles.
The document is 35 pages in PDF format, written for wargamers, and is drawn from specific War Office documents that are referenced:
eg. W/O 290/489
Here's roughly what's on it:
Compares 7½lb & 10lb 3" mortar bomb
Lethality of artillery (25 Pdr, 75mm and 105mm)
Fragmentation (mortars, 3 inch, 40mm & 20mm AA guns, medium arty, GP bombs et al)
Lethality of 3" mortar (cast iron vs steel)
Ground cover Influence on HE projectiles (includes 3 in mortar and 25Pdr)
Sherman M3 gun and British 95mm HE effectiveness
White phos as anti personnel
2 Inch mortar performance
Smoke effectiveness
Night visibilty
25 Pdr dispersion/accuracy
Bombardment casualty study
Mine effectiveness
HE airburst effectiveness
ATk accuracy
Flamethrower effectiveness
Wire cutting ability of HE
Weight of small arms fire to neutralize various targets
Performance of grenades
Comparing effectiveness of rifle, LMG, SMG
Comparison of 3 inch and German 8cm mortars
Effect of HE on personnel (2 Pdr, 6 Pdr, 75mm, 25 Pdr)
And lots more…
Feel free to PM me if you want the whole doc, or just let me know on this thread if you just want specific info.
cheers,
Saxon
I was asking what you needed specifically because I am willing to cherry pick info you need and post it; but I'm hesistant to share the whole document.
Over the years I have amassed a large collection of WW2 documents and info from various sources, and I often share these on various forums. I could potentially just upload my hard drive and make it all available, but much of this info required a lot of searching and was hard to come by.
I guess I'm saying tell me specifically what you want to know, and I will share what I've got; or if you want the whole document, I'd be willing to swap it for something
I may be interested in any WW2 doc you might have. I'm a WW2 wargamer, and my main interests are the European ground war and associated AFVs weapons/equipment. I have a particular interest in the British army, but also the German US and Soviet forces. I also love graphics of vehicles.
The document is 35 pages in PDF format, written for wargamers, and is drawn from specific War Office documents that are referenced:
eg. W/O 290/489
Here's roughly what's on it:
Compares 7½lb & 10lb 3" mortar bomb
Lethality of artillery (25 Pdr, 75mm and 105mm)
Fragmentation (mortars, 3 inch, 40mm & 20mm AA guns, medium arty, GP bombs et al)
Lethality of 3" mortar (cast iron vs steel)
Ground cover Influence on HE projectiles (includes 3 in mortar and 25Pdr)
Sherman M3 gun and British 95mm HE effectiveness
White phos as anti personnel
2 Inch mortar performance
Smoke effectiveness
Night visibilty
25 Pdr dispersion/accuracy
Bombardment casualty study
Mine effectiveness
HE airburst effectiveness
ATk accuracy
Flamethrower effectiveness
Wire cutting ability of HE
Weight of small arms fire to neutralize various targets
Performance of grenades
Comparing effectiveness of rifle, LMG, SMG
Comparison of 3 inch and German 8cm mortars
Effect of HE on personnel (2 Pdr, 6 Pdr, 75mm, 25 Pdr)
And lots more…
Feel free to PM me if you want the whole doc, or just let me know on this thread if you just want specific info.
cheers,
Saxon
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Re: Infantry Mortars
David,David W wrote:Thanks Jon.
Delta Tank. That sounds like an awful lot of TNT for a shell weighing about the same as that of a 25Pdr, over four times a much, can that be right?
Sorry I have not got back to you, for some reason I do not get notified by e-mail on threads I have posted on. I have checked all my information, can't find where my e-mail address goes, still working on it. Will check weight, but If I recall correctly, it has been some years, ok, decades, but the weight was 27 lbs or so, TNT filler, got it from wiki, will check Ian Hogg.
Mike
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Re: Infantry Mortars
David,
My book by Ian Hogg does have filler weights, unfortunately he does not discuss mortars. I believe I have another book that he wrote, but can't find it off hand. I have a book entitled "Brassey's Artillery of the World" edited by Shelford Bidwell, he has mortars in his book, but no filler weights. Will continue to search.
Mike
My book by Ian Hogg does have filler weights, unfortunately he does not discuss mortars. I believe I have another book that he wrote, but can't find it off hand. I have a book entitled "Brassey's Artillery of the World" edited by Shelford Bidwell, he has mortars in his book, but no filler weights. Will continue to search.
Mike