ANZACS

[David W]

In the first half of WWII, how did the make up of a New Zealand Infantry Battalion differ from that of an Australian Infantry Battalion?
If at all?

[Kingfish]

This may help:

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/Com ... armies.htm

[David W]

kingfish.
Useful for numbers of men, but less so for equipment & heavy weapons.

[Kingfish]

Did you scroll down to the bottom of each page?

There are sections that break down the battalion to company/platoon/squad levels and describe the weapons load out for each.

[David W]

Yup, right to the bottom.

[Saxon Cross]

I see detailed info. describing battalion weapons and equipment.

What info. do you need to know that is not described by BayonetStrength?


Saxon

[David W]

OK. In case I can't see something you guys can.....

Number of Bren Guns.
.5" Vickers.
2" Mortars
3" Mortars
4.2" Mortars
Boyes ATR
Carriers
2 pounders

I see 6x 3" mortars in the HQ Co Mortar platoon.
I see carriers & 2 pounders but not quantities.
I see an AA platoon in the HQ Co, but no list of equipment.

Cheers guys

[dor1941]

Murphy in The Relief of Tobruk (footnote p. 174) noted the 25th N.Z. Battalion had 50 LMGs (Brens), nine 3" mortars and no MMGs (which I took to be the 'establishment' for the 1941 rifle battalion) in it's fight with I./Afrika-Regiment 361 (ex-French Foreign Legionaires) for Point 175. Presumably the total of Brens would include those mounted on the battalion's 12-13 Carriers.
In comparison the German battalion is said to have 8 MMGs, 61 LMGs and 10 heavy mortars.

He also mentions ( p. 171) some figures for other German battalions facing the New Zealanders in Crusader:
Kradschutzen-Bataillon 15 - 13 MMGs, 33 LMGs, 6 heavy and 9 light mortars,
Maschinengewehr-Bataillon 2 - 36 MMGs, 10 LMGs, 6 heavy and 9 light mortars, and
"a normal German motorised infantry battalion" (like those of Schutzen-Regiment 115) - 6 MMGs, 57 LMGs, 6 heavy and 9 light mortars.

I had been under the (mistaken?) impression that the British and ANZAC battalions were similarly equipped, at least in 1941.

David R

[Kingfish]

OK. In case I can't see something you guys can.....

The information is there, but since the site breaks each formation down to squad level it will require some basic math on your part to calculate the number of Brens, Boyes, etc. at battalion level.

4.2" Mortars

These were division level assets, which puts it outside of the scope of your inquiry.

I see carriers & 2 pounders but not quantities.

From the '42 Aussie section of Bayonet Strength:

Carrier Platoon - the Carrier Platoon contained four Sections, each of three carriers, plus one at Platoon HQ for a total of thirteen. Each Carrier was crewed by three men, an NCO, a driver-mechanic and a rifleman, with each carrier mounting a Bren gun, and each Section having both a 2-inch mortar and a Boys anti-tank rifle.

Same Page, a little further down:

As with the British, the Australians authorised an Anti-tank Platoon for their Infantry Battalions, initially with four 2-pdr guns, during July and August 1942. This was subsequently increased to eight guns by the time of El Alamein in October 1942. The Australian Infantry Battalions also added a Machine Gun Platoon with six Vickers, authorised in mid 1942.

I see an AA platoon in the HQ Co, but no list of equipment.

Same page again, only further up this time:

Anti-aircraft Platoon - had six 15-cwt trucks, four of which were each armed with twin Bren light machine guns and an anti-tank rifle. The remaining two vehicles carried spare crews.

[David W]

Thank you guys, especially Kingfish.

From the '42 Aussie section of Bayonet Strength:

I was looking under "New Zealand"!

As anaside, would the 4.2" mortars have been with the Divisional HQ?

[Kingfish]

As anaside, would the 4.2" mortars have been with the Divisional HQ?

From Bayonet Strength, but looking at 'The British infantry Division, 1943 to 1945':

Machine Gun Battalion (from early 1944 onwards) - with thirty six Vickers medium machine guns, divided into three Companies, with three Platoons of four MMGs per Company. Also one Heavy Mortar Company with sixteen 4.2-in mortars, divided into four Platoons of four mortars each.

As mentioned earlier, this was a divisional level asset that first saw action at El Alamein. However, it was common practice to parcel out these heavy weapons (as well as AT, AAA, Engineer, etc) down to the Brigades.

[Urmel]

"a normal German motorised infantry battalion" (like those of Schutzen-Regiment 115) - 6 MMGs, 57 LMGs, 6 heavy and 9 light mortars.

David

How do you get to 57 lMGs?

I get 3x3x3 (3 coys, 3 platoons ea, 3 sections ea), which gets me to 27. If each section has two, that makes 54. Would each Coy HQ have a spare lMG to get to 57?

[Alanmccoubrey]

"a normal German motorised infantry battalion" (like those of Schutzen-Regiment 115) - 6 MMGs, 57 LMGs, 6 heavy and 9 light mortars.

David

How do you get to 57 lMGs?

I get 3x3x3 (3 coys, 3 platoons ea, 3 sections ea), which gets me to 27. If each section has two, that makes 54. Would each Coy HQ have a spare lMG to get to 57?

BHQ elements would also have LMGs so perhaps that is the mssing three ?

[dor1941]

"a normal German motorised infantry battalion" (like those of Schutzen-Regiment 115) - 6 MMGs, 57 LMGs, 6 heavy and 9 light mortars.

David

How do you get to 57 lMGs?

Don't know where W. E. Murphy got this information-the N.Z. OH (published in 1961) in "Note on Sources" (p. 530) refers to "Photographic copies or translations of almost all relevant German war diaries except those from Panzer Group Africa from 19 November onwards (which are missing)...".
I guess you'll have to ask Murphy

David R

[Urmel]

Thanks both. Could be, I guess, or could be spares.