Casualties per British Division in NW Europe?

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Larso
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Casualties per British Division in NW Europe?

#1

Post by Larso » 26 Jun 2011, 06:33

I've been wondering about the various differences between British and American methods and one thing I'd like to look at is the casualties suffered by the various British divisions from when they joined in at Normandy through to VE-day. Can anyone point me to a source or ideally provide the figures from their own records?

gjkennedy
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Re: Casualties per British Division in NW Europe?

#2

Post by gjkennedy » 26 Jun 2011, 21:12

I don't know the location of a single source, but here are the figures for 3rd (British) Division in NWE, taken from 'Monty's Ironsides' by Patrick Delaforce -

Killed in action - 1579
Wounded - 8039
Missing - 1636

Those totals appear to be have been subsequently revised as more detailed figures for killed are then given -

8 Bde; 215 (Suffolks), 252 (E Yorks) and 288 (South Lancs)
9 Bde; 254 (Lincolns), 190 (KOSBs), 219 (RUR)
185 Bde; 286 (Warwicks), 271 (Norfolks), 204 (KSLI)

Div Tps; MG Bn 33 (Middlesex), Recce Regt 90 (3 Recce/8NF), 27 (3 Div Sigs)
RA; 36 (7 Fd Regt), 36 (33 Fd Regt), 27 (76 Fd Regt), 46 (20 Atk Regt), 18 (92 LAA Regt)
RE, 25 (17 Fd Coy), 24 (254 Fd Coy), 24 (253 Fd Coy), 1 (15 Fd Pk Coy)
Others; 10 (RAMC), 1 (RAOC), 2 (CMP) (no figures for RASC or REME)

Total, 2586 killed (against overall authorised Div strength of approx 18,500)


Aber
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Re: Casualties per British Division in NW Europe?

#3

Post by Aber » 26 Jun 2011, 23:08

The initial totals for 3rd British Division seem to have come from the Divisional history:

Battle losses (as above) less wounded returned to service total 11084 plus 5157 non battle losses

Battle losses by month:
June 3508
July 2504
August 1088
September 357
October 1301
November 411
December 85
January 157
February 471
March 515
April 687

Larso
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Re: Casualties per British Division in NW Europe?

#4

Post by Larso » 29 Jun 2011, 12:49

Thanks guys. I'd been wondering about how British casualties compare with similarly long served US ones. For some reason I keep thinking that generally the US formations suffered more heavily. The figures for the 3rd given above are indeed higher than for 11 US divisions that fought for 9 months or more. As below -

11 months
4th Infantry Div - 4,834 dead / 17,371 wounded
29th - 3,786 / 15,541
30th - 3,518 / 13,376
79th - 2,943 / 11,807
83rd - 3,620 / 11,807
90th - 3,930 / 14,386

10 months
5th - 2656 / 9,549
8th - 2,820 / 10,057
35th - 2,947 / 11,526

9 months
28th - 2,683 / 9,609
80th - 3,480 / 12,484

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Casualties per British Division in NW Europe?

#5

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 30 Jun 2011, 09:50

Larso,
Do you mean lower?

Tom

Larso
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Re: Casualties per British Division in NW Europe?

#6

Post by Larso » 30 Jun 2011, 10:37

Whoops - Yes I did!

I think the 3rd Brit is a really good one to use as they were in action from D-day. I'll see if I can find some figures for other divisions. Hopefully 15th Scottish and 43rd Wessex in particular.

Larso
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Re: Casualties per British Division in NW Europe?

#7

Post by Larso » 01 Jul 2011, 03:22

The only figures I could find were on Wiki. They had the following casualties (total only) for the European period -

15th Scottish - 11,772
51st - 19,524
53rd - 9,849

If these are correct, I'm surprised to see the 51st with double that of the other two. I recall reading that following its time in Africa it was a bit 'sticky' like the 7th Armoured (but not to the same degree), feeling it had done its bit and now it was someone elses turn.

JonS
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Re: Casualties per British Division in NW Europe?

#8

Post by JonS » 01 Jul 2011, 04:08

Larso wrote:I'm surprised to see the 51st with double that of the other two.
Without backtracking the figures to Wiki, or from there further back up the food chain, my first thought would be that they may be showing different combainations of KIA / WIA1 / WIA2 / POW / NBC, where WIA1 is wounded and invalided, and WIA2 is wounded but returned to service.

Larso
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Re: Casualties per British Division in NW Europe?

#9

Post by Larso » 01 Jul 2011, 11:11

Yes you must be right, it's hard to imagine the 51st could've been pushed twice as hard as any other formation. Wiki did say these were N/W Europe casualties only but it would make sense if these took into account the desert and beyond as well.

gjkennedy
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Re: Casualties per British Division in NW Europe?

#10

Post by gjkennedy » 02 Jul 2011, 02:32

Found some figures for 43rd (Wessex) Div, also from Delaforce (Wessex Wyverns).

Overall casualties of 1587 killed, 8292 wounded and 2603 missing. A slightly more detailed breakdown for Killed in Action then follows, which shows fatalities as substantially higher, suggesting later figures including those previously posted as missing and those who died of wounds suffered.

129 Bde - 229 (4 Somersets) * 1313 casaulties overall, 232 (4 Wiltshires), 334 (5 Wiltshires) * 1277 casaulties overall
130 Bde - 270 estimated (Hampshires), 266 (4 Dorsets), 218 (5 Dorsets)
214 Bde - 300 (Duke of Cornwalls ), 239 (7 Somersets) * 1180 overall, 264 (Worcesters) * 1177 overall

241 (43 Recce; includes 180 lost at sea, 61 KIA)

Combined totals for MG Bn (Middlesex) and 94 Field Regt, RA of 38 KIA
Combined totals for 112 and 179 Field Regts of 37 KIA

Estimated total of 270-300 KIA for 59 Atk Regt and 110 LAA Regt, RA, and also Div RE, Div Sigs, RASC, RAMC, RAOC and REME, plus HQ units.

There is also a general figure for 51st (Highland) Div of 16,469 casaulites in Europe (including 3084 Killed in Action), noted as excluding losses of the 'original' HD in 1940.

It seems there is some worrying disparity between the available figures for the same formations, possibly due to when they were calculated and how long after the campaign men who died of wounds were considered to be battle casualties.

Gary

Larso
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Re: Casualties per British Division in NW Europe?

#11

Post by Larso » 04 Jul 2011, 13:18

Thanks Gary!

It's interesting that those 51st HL figures you provided made a point that they didn't include the figures of the destroyed incarnation. Given that at over 3,000 KIA, roughly double that of the 3rd and 43rd, I wonder whether these actually might include KIA from Africa?

In anycase this seems to be the only UK division with casualties that match those of the US divisions. I'm curious as to why US formations apparently suffered more? Was it because they were thrust into combat more frequently than British ones? Or was it something to do with different tactics?

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Casualties per British Division in NW Europe?

#12

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 Jul 2011, 14:01

The casualties of British divisions can be looked at in two lights.

They were serious given the size of the formations concerned.....

.....but light given the size of the society fielding them.

Britain fielded remarkably few metropolitan divisions on operations over 1939-45, but those that did serve at the front suffered significant losses.

gjkennedy
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Re: Casualties per British Division in NW Europe?

#13

Post by gjkennedy » 04 Jul 2011, 18:01

It's possible the 51st Div totals include Sicily as well as NWE, not sure about North Africa.

Larso
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Re: Casualties per British Division in NW Europe?

#14

Post by Larso » 27 Aug 2011, 03:24

I've just read an excellent book by Allan Converse who comprehensively compares the battle histories of 50th Northumbrians and 9th Australian divisions. His figures for 50th Div drom D-day to Octoberish when the division was broken up are 8,272. These include though casualties for 8th Armoured Bde and a 4th Infantry Bde attached to the 50th for the bulk of its N/W European campaign.

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