British Motor Battalion organisation, North Africa

[gjkennedy]

Below is a summary of the changes made to the British Motor Battalion organisation (War Establishment) for those units serving in the Middle East (ie North Africa) -

British Motor Bn WE, late 1941

Bn HQ; 2 scout cars, 3 LMGs, 1 Atk rifle

HQ Coy –
Sig Pl
Admin Pl; 5 LMGs, 5 Atk rifles

Four Motor Coys, each –

Coy HQ; 1 scout car, 2 LMGs, 2 Atk rifles *
Scout Pl; 2 scout cars, 11 carriers, 13 LMGs, 11 Atk rifles
Three Motor Pls, each; 3 LMGs, 3 Atk rifles, 1 x 2-in mortar

Total support weapons; 104 LMGs, 94 Atk rifles, 12 x 2-in mortars * Coy HQ added a 3-in mortar Det from late 1941, giving 4 x 3-in mortars for the Bn.

British Mot Bn WE, mid-1942 (Middle East)

Bn HQ (includes Sig and Admin elements); 6 LMGs, 4 Atk rifles

Four Motor Coys, each –

Coy HQ; 1 x 3-in mortar det, 1 LMG, 1 Atk rifle
Scout Pl; 11 Universal carriers, 11 LMGs, 11 Atk rifles
MMG Pl; 4 MMGs
Motor Pl; 3 LMGs, 1 Atk rifle
Atk Pl; 4 x 2-pr guns (Portee), 1 LMG

Total support weapons; 26 LMGs (my count, 70 LMGs), 16 MMGs, 12 Atk rifles (my count, 56 Atk rifles), 16 2-pr Atk guns (all or some could be 6-prs as available), 4 x 3-in mortars.

* Note, the breakdown of support weapons is not given in the WE, and the totals for LMGs and Atk rifles is way below what I would expect from preceding and succeeding scales of issue. My current theory is that the WE does not count LMGs and Atk rifles on carriers, as was always done. Figures in italics are therefore my suggestions for issue.

British Mot Bn WE, late-1942 (Middle East)

Bn HQ (includes Sig and Admin elements); 8 LMGs

Three Motor Coys, each –

Coy HQ; 1 x 3-in mortar Det, 3 LMGs
Scout Pl; 11 Universal carriers, 11 LMGs, 11 Atk rifles
MMG Pl; 4 MMGs
Two Motor Pls, each; 3 LMGs

Anti-tank Coy –
Coy HQ; 2 Twin LMGs
Four Atk Pls, each; 4 x 2-pr or 6-pr guns (Portee), 3 Twin LMGs

Total support weapons; 68 LMGs, 14 Twin LMGs, 12 MMGs, 54 Atk rifles, 16 x 2-pr or 6-pr Atk guns, 8x 2-in mortars, 3 x 3-in mortars.

[Urmel]

Gary, question for both this and the inf. bn. thread - when was the first ME-specific WE issued?

Many thanks in advance!

[gjkennedy]

The earliest one that was of interest to me was Headquarters Armoured Division (Egypt) which was dated 15th November 1939, though there were ones prior to that for localised requirements.

The first concerted group of ME specific tables for Armd Div units appear during Feb to May 1942, with the Inf Bn WE effective from April 1942. There is a definite lag as regards the Armd Regt, Armd C Regt and Motor Bn, all of which only get dedicated ME WEs with effective date during August 1942. The Motor Bns had certainly begun to reorganise prior to that, and likewise the Armd Regts were on varying mixes of tanks much earlier. I have a draft email waiting for the RGJ Museum to see if they have anything in their archives providing more detail on the changes to Motor Bns in the desert, in the hopes some eager officer took some notes, and the even greater hope that they survived to be archived! I suspect it might be an expensive exercise though, and possibly a futile one, but I still have a feeling there's a document sitting somewhere that will answer quite a few questions for me!

Hey, a bloke can dream, can't he?

Gary

[Tom from Cornwall]

Gary,

As the supreme WE expert, can you tell me which file I should be looking at in the Record Office at Kew - or do the files differ for different times and locations, etc.

Thanks

Tom

[gjkennedy]

WO24/935 to WO24/958 contain copies of the bulk of the WEs issued from Jan 1937 to Dec 1945. They don't include anything for the Indian Army (drat) or the Special Establishments (double drat). Each PRO/TNA 'piece' covers WEs published over a period of anywhere from two years to three months. WEs initially only had a 'Notified in Army Council Instructions' (ACI) date, and that's how they are categorised, which causes some issues. 'Effective from' dates only began to appear from 1941, and for theatres such as the ME the lag between the ACI date and the effective date can be quite startling. One of the best is for an Armd Bde Sig Sqn, effective 5th Oct 1942, notified in ACIs...5th July 1944!

All the pieces have an index, which from 1942 they actually put in WE Table ref order, prior to that I don't know precisely what method they used to arrange them at the PRO. Each WE Table has a Volume reference (as in II/233/3 for an Inf Bn), based on;

I - Cavalry and Armoured Div, till late 1942 when it switches to Airborne
II - Infantry Div, including Armd Div from late 1942
III - Corps Troops (incl Tank units/HQs)
IV - Line of Communication
V - Home Defence
VI - Middle East
VII - Air Defence (UK)
VIII - Special Establishments (stored separately and very fragmented)
IX - Overseas Garrisons (hard to define really)
X - Originally Airborne, became Persia and Iraq Command
XI - India and Ceylon
XII - North Africa (1st Army patch), becoming Central Med
XIII - Southeast Asia
XIV - 21 Army Group
XV - Light units and formations
XVI - Control Committees

That was quite a good test of the memory, I always get confuddled when it comes to IX, X and XI, so had to look them up!

If you go hunting mention my name, I'm sure it was mud in the photocopy room, and you might see the blood drain from a few faces...Actually I'm still awaiting a reply to a query I logged with them over their revised online ordering service (I can't afford the travel and the copies, so that was how I did most of my dabbling) which curtailed further investigations. They promised to give me a full explanation and it's been about three years now, so it must be coming soon

Oh, and if you want amendments to WEs, I had to hire a researcher in Canada to find some, as I couldn't find any traces of them over here

You might be better sticking with your defective lorries for a bit longer!

All the best,

Gary

[David W]

Thanks for the above Gary.

[Urmel]

The earliest one that was of interest to me was Headquarters Armoured Division (Egypt) which was dated 15th November 1939, though there were ones prior to that for localised requirements.

The first concerted group of ME specific tables for Armd Div units appear during Feb to May 1942, with the Inf Bn WE effective from April 1942. There is a definite lag as regards the Armd Regt, Armd C Regt and Motor Bn, all of which only get dedicated ME WEs with effective date during August 1942. The Motor Bns had certainly begun to reorganise prior to that, and likewise the Armd Regts were on varying mixes of tanks much earlier. I have a draft email waiting for the RGJ Museum to see if they have anything in their archives providing more detail on the changes to Motor Bns in the desert, in the hopes some eager officer took some notes, and the even greater hope that they survived to be archived! I suspect it might be an expensive exercise though, and possibly a futile one, but I still have a feeling there's a document sitting somewhere that will answer quite a few questions for me!

Hey, a bloke can dream, can't he?

Gary

Thanks a lot Gary. So in CRUSADER, everybody would have been on standard WE table, with any variations being local initiative?

[David W]

Gary.

re the late 1941 W.E above.....

No .303 Vickers?

94x Boyes!

No 2Pdrs?



re the Mid 1942 W.E above.....

No 2" Mortars?

[gjkennedy]

I know, the total for Boys (not Boyes, poor chap always gets the wrong name ) is pretty extravagent, but they were supposed to have one per Motor Section, whereas the infantry normally had one per Platoon, so the total is very high (bit Red Army like really).

Bringing the Vickers MMGs in was a North African development, though the future Motor Bn WE as used in Europe retained them.

I have seen a mention in 'Mailed Fist' re 6th Armd Div that at least one of their Motor Bns converted from 2-pr to 6-pr anti-tank guns in North Africa, but that was late 1942, early 1943. If they followed the pattern of other infantry units at the time, they were likely given six 2-prs and told to form a Pl out of the men available. Prior to that (1940-41), the WE didn't envision any 2-pr guns or 3-in mortars for the Motor Bn. That's partly because the Mot Bns were expected to operate attached out as Coys to the Armd Regts, who had tanks armed with 2-pr guns and close support howitzers, so the Motor Bns weren't expected to have to provide their own atk guns and HE weapons. Things changed of course in response to the realities of the battlefield as they always do.

Gary

Oh, I would have to assume so for Crusader in late 1941, but as that's a well documented operation I'm sure someone can find mention of Motor Bns having atk guns and Vickers MMGs to play with!

[David W]

Odd that the 2" mortars start of with 12. Disappear. Then return with 8.

Any ideas?

[gjkennedy]

12 was based on the standard issue of one per Motor Pl. As with the Inf Bn, 2-in mortars were deleted from the Pls in the desert (they were normally used for a localised smoke screen, so didn't detract too much from firepower). The eight 2-in mortars in the last version of the ME Mot Bn were, I think, held at Coy level (two per Mot Coy and two for the Atk Coy, possibly) for use where required. They could also be used to fire other types of rounds for signalling purposes, so perhaps that's why they made a comeback.

Gary

[David W]

OK. Thanks.

Which W.E would have been applicable to the 1st Tower Hamlets Infantry battalion in 1941?

Slight diversification; did Machine gun battalions (1940-1942) have carrier platoons?
Or any carriers at all?

[Alanmccoubrey]

David, MG Battalions did not have Carrier Platoons and I don't believe that they used Carriers in the desert although they were entirely Carrier mounted by D-Day in NW Europe.

[gjkennedy]

Would you like a separate thread?!

Actually they were pretty simple for the time frame you're looking at, four Coys, each of three Pls, each Pl with four Vickers MMGs. Initially 15-cwt trucks were used for transport, but by late 1942 one Coy in the Bn was using carriers fitted for MMG. These were not Carrier Pls as in the Inf/Mot Bns, they transported the MMGs. I'm trying to recall when the Vickers was fitted to the carrier with a purpose built mount so it could be used from the vehicle, I think later on but someone may have lashed a 'scat' mounting together earlier. MG carrier Pls had eight carriers, four for the guns, two for the Sec commanders and two for Pl HQ. I don't think they carried atk rifles and they didn't carry Bren guns either I'm sure, but numbers of each type of weapon were dotted about Bn and Coy HQs for defence.

My MG Bn WEs are a bit buried at the moment, so I'm going from memory somewhat. Certainly the MG Bns didn't have 2 or 3-in mortars, though there is a tantalising ME specific WE from mid 1942 which substitutes the third Pl in each MG Coy with an Atk Pl with four 2-pr guns. I think that was a temporary solution though, and likely restricted to 50 Div.

[David W]

Gary.
Yes to the seperate thread please.

Which W.E would have been applicable to the 1st Tower Hamlets Infantry battalion in 1941?
Ta!