Labour Divisions
Labour Divisions
Can anyone point me to any information on the structure and service of the Labour Divisions in the BEF in 1940?
Re: Labour Divisions
Joslen states that for all three Div so employed (12th, 23rd and 46th) on departing for France "left in the United Kingdom all RA units, the bulk of Divisional Signals and 'some' Administrative units".
12th (Eastern) Div was structured with three Inf Bdes, each of three Bns, three Field Coys and one Field Park Coy, RE (plus for the non-shipped RA three Field Regts and an Atk Regt, RA).
23rd (Northumbrian) Div was a little different, being a duplicate of 50th Div, which was organised as a Motor Div. 23rd therefore had two Inf Bdes, each of three Inf Bns, a Motorcycle Bn (for Recce), two Field Coys and one Field Park Coy, RE. It left two Field Regts, RA behind, but an adhoc unit, 'A' Field Regt, was formed in France from GHQ Troops (Joslen).
46th Div mirrored 12th.
If the RA component wasn't present, Div Sigs could leave their No.2 Coy at home, which served the Field Regts. They probably also left behind elements of No.1 Coy which connected Div HQ with higher and parallel formations, and possibly parts of HQ Coy with admin and maintenance. No.3 Coy worked with the Inf Bdes and Div RE, so they almost certainly would have gone overseas.
Div RASC was using commodity Coys at that time, Ammunition, Petrol and Div Supply Column. Each Coy carried fixed stores for each Duv unit, so they are likely parts of the admin that Joslen refers to.
The question that always comes to my mind is what happened with the Inf Bns! There was an interim WE produced for an Infantry (Pioneer) Battalion, that removed the Mortar and Carrier Platoons (but interesting kept their Pl numbers vacant, going from No.2 AA Pl to No.5 Pioneer Pl). However, this may have been the org used by the Pioneer Bns, I've not seen anything to convince myself either way, though I lean towards it being issued for the Labour Div units.
Gary
12th (Eastern) Div was structured with three Inf Bdes, each of three Bns, three Field Coys and one Field Park Coy, RE (plus for the non-shipped RA three Field Regts and an Atk Regt, RA).
23rd (Northumbrian) Div was a little different, being a duplicate of 50th Div, which was organised as a Motor Div. 23rd therefore had two Inf Bdes, each of three Inf Bns, a Motorcycle Bn (for Recce), two Field Coys and one Field Park Coy, RE. It left two Field Regts, RA behind, but an adhoc unit, 'A' Field Regt, was formed in France from GHQ Troops (Joslen).
46th Div mirrored 12th.
If the RA component wasn't present, Div Sigs could leave their No.2 Coy at home, which served the Field Regts. They probably also left behind elements of No.1 Coy which connected Div HQ with higher and parallel formations, and possibly parts of HQ Coy with admin and maintenance. No.3 Coy worked with the Inf Bdes and Div RE, so they almost certainly would have gone overseas.
Div RASC was using commodity Coys at that time, Ammunition, Petrol and Div Supply Column. Each Coy carried fixed stores for each Duv unit, so they are likely parts of the admin that Joslen refers to.
The question that always comes to my mind is what happened with the Inf Bns! There was an interim WE produced for an Infantry (Pioneer) Battalion, that removed the Mortar and Carrier Platoons (but interesting kept their Pl numbers vacant, going from No.2 AA Pl to No.5 Pioneer Pl). However, this may have been the org used by the Pioneer Bns, I've not seen anything to convince myself either way, though I lean towards it being issued for the Labour Div units.
Gary
Re: Labour Divisions
So, are the infantry battalions in a Labour Division then Pioneer Battalions? Were they Commodity structured, like the Forestry battalions of the Great War?
Re: Labour Divisions
So, are the infantry battalions in a Labour Division then Pioneer Battalions? Were they Commodity structured, like the Forestry battalions of the Great War?
Re: Labour Divisions
Hi SpontoonSpontoon wrote:So, are the infantry battalions in a Labour Division then Pioneer Battalions? Were they Commodity structured, like the Forestry battalions of the Great War?
No the infantry btns weren't pioneer btns but they were used as a labour pool for tasks that may well have been undertaken by the Pioneers. There were several Pioneer units in the BEF, mainly grouped under 5 Group.
This link will help I hope
http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain ... _bef__.htm
Just click on the shadowed icons to drill down
Regards
Andy H
Re: Labour Divisions
Well if the WE I got yonks back is for a modified Inf Bn serving in a Labour Div, I can sort of see some sense to it.
Bn HQ commanded a HQ Coy and three Rifle Coys. HQ Coy included a Signals Pl, an AA Pl (four LMGs and four atk rifles), a slightly larger than normal Pioneer & Anti-gas Pl and the usual Admin Pl.
The three Rifle Coys (and on reflection, the fact they are referred to as Rifle Coys probably seals it
) each had a HQ and three Rifle Pls. These were larger than the normal Inf Bn model (of 29 or 30 all ranks) at 47 or 48 all ranks, deployed as four Secs each of eleven men. Only one Platoon per Coy at the outset of the war was commanded by a Subaltern, the other two having Platoon Serjeant-majors (Warrant officers Class III), so the officer's Pl included a batman. Each Rifle Pl had a single LMG and atk rifle authorised.
Motor transport was also fairly decent, with a single car (for the Bn CO), 6 x 8-cwt trucks, 22 x 15-cwt trucks and 12 x 30-cwt lorries, plus 16 motorcycles.
Overall strength was stated as 18 officers and 632 men (including attached). That compares against 22 officers and 646 men for a normal Inf Bn, though the latter had more 8-cwt and 15-cwt trucks, plus of course carriers, and more substantial support weapons.
My understanding is the use of Inf Divs for labour and construction duties was only judged as a temporary affair, a much longer campaign being anticipated than the one that actually played out. It wouldn't take too much to restructure a unit on the Inf (Pioneer) Bn WE to a standard Inf (Rifle) Bn, which again supports the idea that this is how the Labour Div unit were organised. That would make them a little more formidable than a Pioneer Bn proper I imagine, but can't confirm as I don't have their equivalent WE.
Gary
Bn HQ commanded a HQ Coy and three Rifle Coys. HQ Coy included a Signals Pl, an AA Pl (four LMGs and four atk rifles), a slightly larger than normal Pioneer & Anti-gas Pl and the usual Admin Pl.
The three Rifle Coys (and on reflection, the fact they are referred to as Rifle Coys probably seals it
) each had a HQ and three Rifle Pls. These were larger than the normal Inf Bn model (of 29 or 30 all ranks) at 47 or 48 all ranks, deployed as four Secs each of eleven men. Only one Platoon per Coy at the outset of the war was commanded by a Subaltern, the other two having Platoon Serjeant-majors (Warrant officers Class III), so the officer's Pl included a batman. Each Rifle Pl had a single LMG and atk rifle authorised. Motor transport was also fairly decent, with a single car (for the Bn CO), 6 x 8-cwt trucks, 22 x 15-cwt trucks and 12 x 30-cwt lorries, plus 16 motorcycles.
Overall strength was stated as 18 officers and 632 men (including attached). That compares against 22 officers and 646 men for a normal Inf Bn, though the latter had more 8-cwt and 15-cwt trucks, plus of course carriers, and more substantial support weapons.
My understanding is the use of Inf Divs for labour and construction duties was only judged as a temporary affair, a much longer campaign being anticipated than the one that actually played out. It wouldn't take too much to restructure a unit on the Inf (Pioneer) Bn WE to a standard Inf (Rifle) Bn, which again supports the idea that this is how the Labour Div unit were organised. That would make them a little more formidable than a Pioneer Bn proper I imagine, but can't confirm as I don't have their equivalent WE.
Gary
Re: Labour Divisions
On May 10th the following Infantry were designated as Pioneer within the BEF and serving under direct BEF control:-
6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Battalions The King's Own Royal Regiment
7th Battalion The Royal Norfolk Regiment
1st/6th Battalion The South Staffordshire Regiment
6th Battalion The Royal Scots Fusiliers
These 4 Btns were seperate from AMPC Companies etc
From The War in France & Flanders 1939-40 by Ellis:-
Regards
Andy H
6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Battalions The King's Own Royal Regiment
7th Battalion The Royal Norfolk Regiment
1st/6th Battalion The South Staffordshire Regiment
6th Battalion The Royal Scots Fusiliers
These 4 Btns were seperate from AMPC Companies etc
From The War in France & Flanders 1939-40 by Ellis:-
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/U ... ers-2.htmlPg19
By the end of April the strength of the British Army in France had increased to 394,165. Of this total, 237,319 were with G.H.Q. and in corps and divisions—that is the main fighting force; 18,347 were in the Territorial divisions sent out for labour duties and further training.
Pg21
in rearward areas and on lines of communication, in preparation for further expansion of British forces, had continued systematically so far as labour and materials allowed. Construction of fifty-nine new airfields and landing grounds for British air forces stationed in France employed upwards of 10,000 men, and other large units were engaged on railway and building construction, at bases and on the long lines of communication. Over a hundred miles of broad-gauge railway lines were laid and great quantities of barbed wire were put up.
It was to ease the problems of manpower for such duties that the three Territorial divisions already mentioned above—the 12th (Eastern), 23rd (Northumbrian) and 46th (North Midland and West Riding) Divisions—were brought out from England in April. They were neither full trained nor equipped for fighting, and, while they were to be used largely for labour duties, a balanced programme of training was carried out so far as time permitted.
Regards
Andy H
Re: Labour Divisions
So, any Forestry battalions in the BEF 1940? What would be the TOE?