British Comet tank versus German panzers?

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kriegerwaffen
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Re: British Comet tank versus German panzers?

#16

Post by kriegerwaffen » 18 Nov 2009, 01:45

At www.tiger-tank.com there is a photo of a Kampfgruppe Schulze Tiger Tank based at Fallingboste having been destroyed by a Brittish Comet from the 3rd Royal Tank Regiment. In 1943 attempts were made to mount Vickers' new high velocity 75mm gun in a Cromwell but it was found that the gun would not fit into the Cromwell after all. This 75mm weapon was then detuned to fire 17 Pounder ammunition and was known as 77mm so that there would not be confusion over ammunition supplies, and fitted to the Comet. The High Velocity 77mm was extremely accurate, more so than the regular 17 Pounder. Around 20% of the comets ammunition were of the armour piercing discarding sabot type (APDS) . In reality the tank came a little too late in the war to really make an impact, I believe it would have faired quite well against the panzers apart from it's reasonably unprotected front tracks which would undoubtedly be damaged in a tank on tank action.

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Re: British Comet tank versus German panzers?

#17

Post by phylo_roadking » 19 Nov 2009, 00:13

Problem is....tank-on-tanks actions are

1/ very fluid, hence either the shooter or target OR BOTH is/are moving. Something like a trackrun is a VERY small target to hit!

OR

2/ "static" - one side or the other is holding a position - thus take advantage of ALL the pluses to be had in terms of terrain and cover - "hull-down", behind brush, between buildings etc. A trackrun simply might not be visible to the shooter.

Apart from anything else - a track loss isn't a "kill" - okay, the target might be left immobile - but without a hull or turret hit it can still fire it's main gun! 1945 wasn't the French campaign of 1940, when crews of both sides caught out in ANY unfavourable circumstances simply got out ASAP and legged it! :lol: When you look at some of the tanks of 1945 - inside them was often the most protected place around! 8O


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Re: British Comet tank versus German panzers?

#18

Post by bf109 emil » 19 Nov 2009, 11:45

ImageImage
The Comet resulted from a hurried need to fit the 17pdr gun to the chassis of a Cromwell/Challenger. The 17pdr was also redesigned as well into a shorter, lighter version that came to be called the 77mm. Not on the prototype, return rollers were added to the production line as built by Leyland. A new, and much more aesthetic turret was added. The design was all welded. The tanks were in service in early 1945.
Specifications Crew 5
Weight 32.5 Tons
Length 25' 1.5"
Width 10'
Height 8' 9.5"
Armor 14 - 101mm
Powerplant Meteor 600hp
Armament 1 x 77mm, 2 x 7.92mm MG
Performance 29 mph

sourced from Tanks and armoured warfare prior to 1946

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Re: British Comet tank versus German panzers?

#19

Post by Kingfish » 20 Nov 2009, 04:16

kriegerwaffen wrote: I believe it would have faired quite well against the panzers apart from it's reasonably unprotected front tracks which would undoubtedly be damaged in a tank on tank action.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but what other tank, from any nation, would have a reasonably well protected front track?

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Re: British Comet tank versus German panzers?

#20

Post by The_Enigma » 24 Nov 2009, 18:42

Kingfish wrote:
kriegerwaffen wrote: I believe it would have faired quite well against the panzers apart from it's reasonably unprotected front tracks which would undoubtedly be damaged in a tank on tank action.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but what other tank, from any nation, would have a reasonably well protected front track?
Do the mud/dustguards on the Matilda and Churchill count?! :P
This 75mm weapon was then detuned to fire 17 Pounder ammunition and was known as 77mm so that there would not be confusion over ammunition supplies, and fitted to the Comet.
This has rather confused me; how does a 75mm gun become a shortend down 17 pounder (76.2mm)?

On a general note it seems the 75mm gun fitted to the Cromwells/Shermans etc gets quite a bit of flack and there are a few stories of shells being fired from them bouncing off Tiger tank armour even at close range etc.
Would this be down to the length of the weapon? If they had of been produced longer would have that made their penetration power better? Would than then have a knock on effect of its ability to lob HE and smoke rounds?

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Tim Smith
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Re: British Comet tank versus German panzers?

#21

Post by Tim Smith » 25 Nov 2009, 12:58

A 75mm gun did not become a '77'mm gun.

The 75mm on the Cromwell and the '77'mm on the Comet were two totally different guns. Just as the 75mm/L48 on the Panzer IV and the 75mm/L70 on the Panther were two totally different guns.

The '77'mm on the Comet was actually a slightly cut-down version of the long 76.2mm 17-pounder gun mounted on the Sherman Firefly. The British called their new gun a '77'mm when actually it was of 76.2mm calibre, so that ammunition for the long Firefly gun and the shorter Comet gun wouldn't get mixed up (the shell casings were of different sizes.)

The Cromwell's 75mm gun was designed mainly for infantry support and to destroy enemy medium tanks, like the Sherman's 75mm gun. Not to take out heavy Tiger tanks. Taking out heavy Tiger tanks was a job for Challengers, Sherman Fireflies, and Archers, which all had the long 17-pounder gun. The Cromwell's design actually dated from 1941, long before the Tiger prototype had been finished. The Cromwell design was updated in 1942, but this was still before the Tiger was first encountered by the British in Tunisia. Therefore the Cromwell, like the basic Sherman, was not designed to face the Tiger.

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Attrition
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Re: British Comet tank versus German panzers?

#22

Post by Attrition » 25 Nov 2009, 13:46

What happened to the Vickers 75mm?

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Re: British Comet tank versus German panzers?

#23

Post by The_Enigma » 25 Nov 2009, 17:39

Tim Smith wrote:A 75mm gun did not become a '77'mm gun.

The 75mm on the Cromwell and the '77'mm on the Comet were two totally different guns. Just as the 75mm/L48 on the Panzer IV and the 75mm/L70 on the Panther were two totally different guns.

The '77'mm on the Comet was actually a slightly cut-down version of the long 76.2mm 17-pounder gun mounted on the Sherman Firefly. The British called their new gun a '77'mm when actually it was of 76.2mm calibre, so that ammunition for the long Firefly gun and the shorter Comet gun wouldn't get mixed up (the shell casings were of different sizes.)
I thought that, i was just a little confused as no one had flagged that one up! Although i didnt know the bits about the different shell sizes.

So they used essentially the same ammo from near enough the same gun... with the smaller barrel was the "77mm" slightly less deadly than the 17 Pounder?
What happened to the Vickers 75mm?
The Shermans used, iirc an M3 75mm. Would i be wrong to assume the Cromwells used a British 75mm ... possibly this weapon you speak of that up to now i have never heard so could be compeltly wrong? :lol: :P

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Attrition
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Re: British Comet tank versus German panzers?

#24

Post by Attrition » 25 Nov 2009, 18:00

I keep reading that Vickers designed a 75mm HV which wouldn't fit the Cromwell turret so a cut down 17pdr with a cartidge from a 3" AA was fitted into the Challenger and the Comet, so what happened to the Vickers 75mm?

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Re: British Comet tank versus German panzers?

#25

Post by The_Enigma » 25 Nov 2009, 19:23

I have heard of this HV 75mm gun too for the Cromwell, was it not the one that was used then? This 3inch AA round, are you talking about the 77mm rounds? I thought rounds for the 17 Pounder (the gun used in the Challenger and Firefly) was incompatable with the 76.2mm "77mm" gun?

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Attrition
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Re: British Comet tank versus German panzers?

#26

Post by Attrition » 25 Nov 2009, 20:25

The 3"AA cartridge fired the 17pdr shell in the HV77mm. The Vickers 75mmHV is a different gun (I think).

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Re: British Comet tank versus German panzers?

#27

Post by The_Enigma » 25 Nov 2009, 21:08

British Armour in Normandy by John Buckley

The HV 75mm gun was renamed the 77mm in late April 1943 and used in the Comet, it had originally been intended to be used on the Cromwell however it was found the turret was too small to acomadate the 75mm/L50 gun.

P.170

So am confused now ... how the hell does a 75mm gun become a 76.2mm 17pounder?

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Re: British Comet tank versus German panzers?

#28

Post by Ostkatze » 26 Nov 2009, 02:39

Too lazy tonight ( and computer ignorant ) to type in all those fancy letters - check out " Cromwell Cruiser Tank 1942-50 " by David Fletcher- Osprey on Google Books. P.13 for the various guns.
And then back to Tony Williams, as Mark V suggested on the 1st page 7 years ago - if you delve in his site there are tasty tables on the various calbres' shell sizes and stuff like that there.... np.
ps. That Tony Williams photo on page1 features a round for that vaunted 3" How. for the CS tanks I was bitching about. Pretty impressive charge huh?

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Attrition
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Re: British Comet tank versus German panzers?

#29

Post by Attrition » 26 Nov 2009, 14:02

What happened to the 'new 75mm high velocity gun with a 50 calibre barrel' from Vickers-Armstrong?

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Re: British Comet tank versus German panzers?

#30

Post by Polynikes » 26 Nov 2009, 16:38

When looking at pictures of the Sherman and Cromwell tanks, the turret on the Sherman seems smaller than the Cromwell.
Was the problem of fitting the 17pdr gun into the Cromwell not so much about the physical interior dimentions but one of the size of the tuttet ring?
ie: it fitted but the turret couldn't take the recoil.

The 17pdr gun was fitted into a Valentine chasis but facing backwards.
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