This is an apolitical forum for discussions on the Axis nations, as well as the First and Second World Wars in general hosted by Marcus Wendel's Axis History Factbook in cooperation with Michael Miller's Axis Biographical Research and Christoph Awender's WW2 day by day.
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by Urmel on 29 Jun 2012 13:30
phylo_roadking wrote:Der Spiegel doesn't quite seem to grasp...
by Andy H on 29 Jun 2012 14:41
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by Ex Fred on 30 Jun 2012 23:43
'Bomber Command Made Decisive Contribution'
Professor Rolf-Dieter Müller, a German military historian who headed a commission investigating the extent of the civilian casualties in Dresden, said: "Germans have a contradictory and difficult relationship with the bombing campaign because the civilian losses were so great and one has the impression that Bomber Command wasn't just bent on destroying Hitler's war machine but on terrorizing the civilian population and crushing morale."
"But Bomber Command made a decisive contribution towards the Allied victory over Germany," Müller told SPIEGEL ONLINE. "Without the Allied air raids, Hitler would have been able to carry on the war longer and more terribly, possibly with the use of poison gas and even nuclear weapons. In my opinion, the bombing was not just legitimate but even a necessary instrument to help end the war."
"Is it justified in war to factor in civilian losses and collateral damage? We judge by different standards today than in the 1940s. One overlooks the fact that the bombing crews suffered immense losses themselves, it wasn't a cakewalk for the RAF or the United States Air Force. Germany must respect the fact that the British see the need to honor the bombing crews with a memorial."
by nobodyofnote on 03 Jul 2012 07:19
Pacifists criticise 'monument of shame' for Bomber Command
A memorial to World War Two Bomber Command, unveiled in London this week, has been described as a "monument of shame" by an organisation that campaigned against the bombing of German civilians in the 1940s.
The Peace Pledge Union (PPU), the main pacifist organisation in Britain, said the memorial goes beyond commemoration and implies endorsement of Bomber Command's tactics.
The PPU was at the forefront of campaigns against the UK's mass bombing of German civilians during the Second World War.
Supporters of the monument point out that its wording calls for remembrance for people killed on all sides of the conflict - an unusual feature for a British war memorial. But several British pacifists have said that this is undermined by the rhetoric around the unveiling of the monument, which seems to applaud those responsible for ordering Bomber Command to target civilians.
About 50,000 members of Bomber Command were killed in the war. Bomber Command killed about 300,000 people, mostly German civilians.
A PPU statement said, “The vast new memorial to be unveiled by the Queen goes far beyond mere commemoration. Its sheer scale and attendant ceremony are a clear statement by its supporters, the military and the state that the core activities of Bomber Command - which an unbiased International Court would readily identify as a war crime - are here seen as laudable, heroic and noble.”
The PPU said that the surviving men of Bomber Command have good reason to be angry with the “duplicity” of the government of the time. They were shunned at the war's end. The politicians, and Churchill in particular, chose to distance themselves from the actions of which they had earlier approved – and in Churchill's case, ordered.
The mass bombing of German civilians was criticised at the time not only pacifists but by several politicians and religious leaders. The Quaker Labour MP Alfred Salter was among those who campaigned against it.
The PPU said this week, “It is regrettable that the concern expressed by people in Britain at 'obliteration bombing' during the war itself finds so little echo 70 years later”.
The organisation also criticised attempts to “lionise” Bomber Command's commander-in-chief Arthur Harris – known as “Bomber Harris” - who they described as “the architect of indiscriminate mass killing”.
by Urmel on 03 Jul 2012 11:09
Ex Fred wrote:From Spiegel Online, it seems not all Germans are against the memorial.'Bomber Command Made Decisive Contribution'
Professor Rolf-Dieter Müller, a German military historian who headed a commission investigating the extent of the civilian casualties in Dresden, said: "Germans have a contradictory and difficult relationship with the bombing campaign because the civilian losses were so great and one has the impression that Bomber Command wasn't just bent on destroying Hitler's war machine but on terrorizing the civilian population and crushing morale."
"But Bomber Command made a decisive contribution towards the Allied victory over Germany," Müller told SPIEGEL ONLINE. "Without the Allied air raids, Hitler would have been able to carry on the war longer and more terribly, possibly with the use of poison gas and even nuclear weapons. In my opinion, the bombing was not just legitimate but even a necessary instrument to help end the war."
"Is it justified in war to factor in civilian losses and collateral damage? We judge by different standards today than in the 1940s. One overlooks the fact that the bombing crews suffered immense losses themselves, it wasn't a cakewalk for the RAF or the United States Air Force. Germany must respect the fact that the British see the need to honor the bombing crews with a memorial."
I would very strongly press the noble Viscount to take great pains about the definition of legitimate objectives of a military and industrial kind and to avoid to the utmost extent possible any confusion of them with non-military and non-industrial objectives.
It is also urged that area bombing will break down morale and the will to fight. On November 5, in a speech at Cheltenham, the Secretary of State for Air said that bombing in this way would continue until we had paralysed German war industries, disrupted their transport system and broken their will to war.
The ultimate aim of the attack on a town area is to break the morale of the population which occupies it.
Primarily the progressive destruction and dislocation of the German military, industrial and economic systems and the undermining of the morale of the German people to a point where their capacity for armed resistance is fatally weakened.
by Andy H on 03 Jul 2012 12:07
nobodyofnote wrote:The organisation also criticised attempts to “lionise” Bomber Command's commander-in-chief Arthur Harris – known as “Bomber Harris” - who they described as “the architect of indiscriminate mass killing”.
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