22nd Armd Bde Recovery Section 1941
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22nd Armd Bde Recovery Section 1941
Hi,
I'm currently transcribing the war diary of this unit for Oct and Nov 41 (the only months in WO169/1299) and have come across references to one 16-ton tank transporter and two 30-ton tank transporters, but also to Scammell recovery vehicles. There are not, unfortunately, any full details of vehicles held - does anyone have a war establishment for the Recovery Sections of Armd Bdes at this time?
Also, does anyone know what happened to this unit after the end of November; they were recovering tanks on 30 November and, although having lost some vehicles, seem to be fully functioning. Were they overrun in December or perhaps combined with another Recovery Section? Or maybe they just lost the diary for December?
Any information would be gratefully received. If anyone would like to see their war diary I'll post the details when I've finished copying it.
I'm intending to get the war diary of the Light Repair Section next and will likewise stick any details up here.
Regards
Tom
I'm currently transcribing the war diary of this unit for Oct and Nov 41 (the only months in WO169/1299) and have come across references to one 16-ton tank transporter and two 30-ton tank transporters, but also to Scammell recovery vehicles. There are not, unfortunately, any full details of vehicles held - does anyone have a war establishment for the Recovery Sections of Armd Bdes at this time?
Also, does anyone know what happened to this unit after the end of November; they were recovering tanks on 30 November and, although having lost some vehicles, seem to be fully functioning. Were they overrun in December or perhaps combined with another Recovery Section? Or maybe they just lost the diary for December?
Any information would be gratefully received. If anyone would like to see their war diary I'll post the details when I've finished copying it.
I'm intending to get the war diary of the Light Repair Section next and will likewise stick any details up here.
Regards
Tom
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Re: 22nd Armd Bde Recovery Section 1941
Tom,
This is the WE for an Armd Bde & Sp Gp Rec Sec, RAOC (ref I/1931/14E/1 of 7th May 1941) -
Personnel;
2 Officers
1 WO1
3 Staff Sjts/Sjts
28 ORs
9 att (7 'general dutymen' and 2 ACC)
43 all ranks
Transport;
4 MCs
1 Car (2 seat)
1 Truck, 15-cwt (cooks)
3 Lorries, 3-ton, 6-wheel, breakdown * tenders for transporters and carriage of equipment & assemblies
3 Tractors, 6-wheel, breakdown, heavy (Scammel)
There are then some differences for a Sec serving an Army Tk Bde, an Armd Bde (Heavy) or an Armd Bde (Light);
For an Armd Bde, Heavy -
3 Transporters (20-ton)
1 Tractor, D8, tracked
1 Trailer, recovery, 30-ton (Dyson)* for D8
For an Armd Bde, Light -
3 Trailers, recovery (Crane)
For a Tank Bde; as per Hvy Armd Bde, but having 3 transporters (25-ton) instead of 20-ton.
So, mention of a 30-tonner, but not a clue about the 16-tonner. Nothing of similar type for either the Light Repair or OFP Secs. There was a ME version of the WE (VI/1931/74B/1 of April 1941), which has a few differences. Add 1 OR, change the 15-cwt to a 3-tonner and delete differences for a Light Armd Bde, but essentially the same.
Now in early 1942 new ME specific WEs were issued for RAOC units, which included an Armd Bde Group Ord Coy. This included an HQ, Repair Sec, Recovery Sec and Field Park Sec. I don't know when these units were actually established, but Feb 1942 for the effective date of the WE is reasonably close to Nov 1941, so possibly they were absorbed into the new Ord Coy and ceased having their own WD? And the Ord Coy had three "18/20-ton" and one "25/30-ton" transporters in its Recovery Sec, so close but still no cigar...
Gary
This is the WE for an Armd Bde & Sp Gp Rec Sec, RAOC (ref I/1931/14E/1 of 7th May 1941) -
Personnel;
2 Officers
1 WO1
3 Staff Sjts/Sjts
28 ORs
9 att (7 'general dutymen' and 2 ACC)
43 all ranks
Transport;
4 MCs
1 Car (2 seat)
1 Truck, 15-cwt (cooks)
3 Lorries, 3-ton, 6-wheel, breakdown * tenders for transporters and carriage of equipment & assemblies
3 Tractors, 6-wheel, breakdown, heavy (Scammel)
There are then some differences for a Sec serving an Army Tk Bde, an Armd Bde (Heavy) or an Armd Bde (Light);
For an Armd Bde, Heavy -
3 Transporters (20-ton)
1 Tractor, D8, tracked
1 Trailer, recovery, 30-ton (Dyson)* for D8
For an Armd Bde, Light -
3 Trailers, recovery (Crane)
For a Tank Bde; as per Hvy Armd Bde, but having 3 transporters (25-ton) instead of 20-ton.
So, mention of a 30-tonner, but not a clue about the 16-tonner. Nothing of similar type for either the Light Repair or OFP Secs. There was a ME version of the WE (VI/1931/74B/1 of April 1941), which has a few differences. Add 1 OR, change the 15-cwt to a 3-tonner and delete differences for a Light Armd Bde, but essentially the same.
Now in early 1942 new ME specific WEs were issued for RAOC units, which included an Armd Bde Group Ord Coy. This included an HQ, Repair Sec, Recovery Sec and Field Park Sec. I don't know when these units were actually established, but Feb 1942 for the effective date of the WE is reasonably close to Nov 1941, so possibly they were absorbed into the new Ord Coy and ceased having their own WD? And the Ord Coy had three "18/20-ton" and one "25/30-ton" transporters in its Recovery Sec, so close but still no cigar...
Gary
Re: 22nd Armd Bde Recovery Section 1941
I think the latter is most likely. I don't think they were overrun. What is possible is that the war diaries were lost in January, although I doubt that.Tom from Cornwall wrote: Also, does anyone know what happened to this unit after the end of November; they were recovering tanks on 30 November and, although having lost some vehicles, seem to be fully functioning. Were they overrun in December or perhaps combined with another Recovery Section? Or maybe they just lost the diary for December?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
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Re: 22nd Armd Bde Recovery Section 1941
Gary,
Many thanks for the reply:
For personnel W.E. the field returns for week ending 15 November have the "Posted strength counting against establishment" as:
1 Captain, 1 2/Lieut, 1 WO1, 2 Sjts, 2 Cpls, 23 Ptes (with a deficit of 4 Ptes) to give a total of 2 officers and 32 ORs. Perhaps I missed the attached personnel - or they weren't recorded on this Field Return. I'll try to check again.
Anyway, all pretty close to that authorised by the W.E. from what I can see.
It appears the units transport was split between the convoy that arrived in Port Suez and that which arrived in Port Said.
The former seems to have consisted of "8 vehicles, one trailer 30-ton and four motor-cycles", while the latter covered the "two Scammell 30-ton tank transporters". So according to the WE this should be 1 Car (2 seat), 1 truck, 15 cwt, 3 3-ton 6-whld breakdown tenders and 3 heavy breakdown Scammell tractors.
Subsequently the following transport was received:
10 Oct 41 - 1 3-ton 4 wheeled G.S. Lorry.
16 Oct 41 - 3 15-cwt G.S. Trucks.
19 Oct 41 - One lorry 3-ton 4-whld G.S. and two trucks 8-cwt G.S. Utility.
22 Oct 41 - One motor cycle received from 22nd Armd Bde.
24 Oct 41 - One truck 15-cwt 4-wheeled G.S. received from 4th County of London Yeomanry Regt.
Whilst outgoing vehicles were:
20 Oct 41 - One 8-cwt Utility truck transferred to 3rd Field Sqdn, R.E.
24 Oct 41 - Remaining 8-cwt Utility truck handed over to 4th County of London Yeomanry Regt.
24 Oct 41 - One O.R. proceeded by road to No. 4 B.O.D. Abbassia to hand in four motorcycles.
Then on 10 November 41,
"Two 30-ton tank transporters, one 18-ton transporter and a 15-cwt G.S. Truck prepared to move to Western Desert under orders from 8th Army H.Q."
Apologies that is 18-ton transporter NOT 16-ton transporter.
No more details of main vehicle party although the admin section joined the L.R.S. so I'm hoping that there may be an Order of March in that unit's diary that mentions types and numbers of vehicles.
Regards
Tom
Many thanks for the reply:
For personnel W.E. the field returns for week ending 15 November have the "Posted strength counting against establishment" as:
1 Captain, 1 2/Lieut, 1 WO1, 2 Sjts, 2 Cpls, 23 Ptes (with a deficit of 4 Ptes) to give a total of 2 officers and 32 ORs. Perhaps I missed the attached personnel - or they weren't recorded on this Field Return. I'll try to check again.
Anyway, all pretty close to that authorised by the W.E. from what I can see.
It appears the units transport was split between the convoy that arrived in Port Suez and that which arrived in Port Said.
The former seems to have consisted of "8 vehicles, one trailer 30-ton and four motor-cycles", while the latter covered the "two Scammell 30-ton tank transporters". So according to the WE this should be 1 Car (2 seat), 1 truck, 15 cwt, 3 3-ton 6-whld breakdown tenders and 3 heavy breakdown Scammell tractors.
Subsequently the following transport was received:
10 Oct 41 - 1 3-ton 4 wheeled G.S. Lorry.
16 Oct 41 - 3 15-cwt G.S. Trucks.
19 Oct 41 - One lorry 3-ton 4-whld G.S. and two trucks 8-cwt G.S. Utility.
22 Oct 41 - One motor cycle received from 22nd Armd Bde.
24 Oct 41 - One truck 15-cwt 4-wheeled G.S. received from 4th County of London Yeomanry Regt.
Whilst outgoing vehicles were:
20 Oct 41 - One 8-cwt Utility truck transferred to 3rd Field Sqdn, R.E.
24 Oct 41 - Remaining 8-cwt Utility truck handed over to 4th County of London Yeomanry Regt.
24 Oct 41 - One O.R. proceeded by road to No. 4 B.O.D. Abbassia to hand in four motorcycles.
Then on 10 November 41,
"Two 30-ton tank transporters, one 18-ton transporter and a 15-cwt G.S. Truck prepared to move to Western Desert under orders from 8th Army H.Q."
Apologies that is 18-ton transporter NOT 16-ton transporter.
No more details of main vehicle party although the admin section joined the L.R.S. so I'm hoping that there may be an Order of March in that unit's diary that mentions types and numbers of vehicles.
Regards
Tom
Re: 22nd Armd Bde Recovery Section 1941
That's quite interesting, since the conclusion from operations November to January was that recovery in British tank units was inferior to the Germans. So maybe they drew some quick lessons.Gary Kennedy wrote:Now in early 1942 new ME specific WEs were issued for RAOC units, which included an Armd Bde Group Ord Coy. This included an HQ, Repair Sec, Recovery Sec and Field Park Sec. I don't know when these units were actually established, but Feb 1942 for the effective date of the WE is reasonably close to Nov 1941, so possibly they were absorbed into the new Ord Coy and ceased having their own WD? And the Ord Coy had three "18/20-ton" and one "25/30-ton" transporters in its Recovery Sec, so close but still no cigar...
Gary
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
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Re: 22nd Armd Bde Recovery Section 1941
Just read (in Barrie Pitt Vol 2) that 22nd Armd Bde HQ was withdrawn on 30 Nov and that a combined 22/4 Armd Bde was created. Perhaps the 22nd Armd Bde Recovery Section was likewise folded into a combined unit, which was later formalised in the WE?
It seems from the war diary of 22 Armd Bde Recovery Section that at the end of November 41 the Bde Recovery Sections were operating in the same area and all taking recovered vehicles to a combined Div Recovery Pool.
BTW is t "Arm[ament]t Sergeant Major" what is meant by A.S.M?
Regards
Tom
It seems from the war diary of 22 Armd Bde Recovery Section that at the end of November 41 the Bde Recovery Sections were operating in the same area and all taking recovered vehicles to a combined Div Recovery Pool.
Code: Select all
27 November 1941
Capt Arbuckle + 2/Lieut Hewitt proceeded to BIR BERRANEB and learned from HQ 4th
1200 Armoured Brigade that the 22nd [Armd] Bde had moved Eastward, so moved North East with the 4th Brigade, and then located and joined the 22nd Armd Bde.
1600 No personnel or vehicles of the Recovery Section were with Brigade.
27 November 1941
0630 Returned to BIR BERRANEB (443374), located a column of ‘B’ Echelon vehicles which had tried to join Brigade ‘A’ Echelon and then continued to F.M.C. 62 near SCIUEIA (457336). Joined 7th Armd Brigade Recovery Section and moved forward to area 440352.
28 November 1941
0630 Capt Arbuckle and 2/Lieut Hewitt carried out a reconnaissance of area 4336, located Ten Cruiser tanks, one bren carrier and scout car. Two transporters each loaded a tank, and took another in tow, and returned to unit, behind which had moved 4th Armoured Brigade L.R.S.
1400 Two Scammells, the two 3-ton lorries and three 15-cwts, with the Armt Sergeant Major and remaining unit personnel rejoined unit, and reported having had to abandon two Leyland breakdown lorries.
1600 Two Scammells and one transporter departed to recover a further three tanks to tank dump behind unit and returned later in the evening.
29 November 1941 440352
Continued recovery of tanks from area 4336.
Two tanks taken to Armd Div Workshops at AGHERET SCIUEIA (457336) on transporters.
30 November 1941
Capt Arbuckle carried out reconnaissance of area BIR BERRANEB (443374).
Transporters continued evacuation of tanks to A.D.W.
Regards
Tom
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Re: 22nd Armd Bde Recovery Section 1941
Tom, at a guess I'd say he was the SM in charge of the "Armourers", responsible for the various weapons and their repair.
Alan
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Re: 22nd Armd Bde Recovery Section 1941
The WO1 for the unit is listed as being an Armament artificer, but under Trades and Duties he's actually shown as a Fitter. The only Armourer I can find listed is with the Light Repair Sec, along with another 8 armament artificer fitters.
Gary
Gary
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Re: 22nd Armd Bde Recovery Section 1941
A ASM is an Artificer Sergent Major (WO1) in the REME, was this title in use with the ROAC workshops before convwerting to REME in 1942?
Clive
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Re: 22nd Armd Bde Recovery Section 1941
Clive, a good theory if only the abbreviation in the original wasn't Armt rather than Art.
Alan