David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

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Darth Vader
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#106

Post by Darth Vader » 22 Jun 2013, 17:06

Lloyd George and the Lost Peace: From Versailles to Hitler 1919-1940
Anthony Lentin

As per Professor Alan Sharp's review of the book.
He could have added that both were consummate liars but there was always the saving grace that, despite Lloyd George's public praise for Hitler's achievements, he never approved his methods - political and religious persecution and concentration camps were all 'a terrible thing to an old Liberal like myself'.
So despite his awareness of political and religious persecution and the existence of concentration camps, he lauded Adolf Hitler and his regime.
I find your lack of faith disturbing.

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Terry Duncan
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#107

Post by Terry Duncan » 23 Jun 2013, 21:47

So despite his awareness of political and religious persecution and the existence of concentration camps, he lauded Adolf Hitler and his regime.
What he said is not what you were claiming though. People have been aware for years that he made a fool of himself over the Hitler visit, though with the Olympics taking place in Berlin in 1936 you will find he was far from the only politician to visit or say things about Germany that was positive in some way or other, but that does not make him a supporter of the Nazi's or a sympathiser with their policies. As an example, you may or may not like David Cameron but it is almost certain you would share some views with him on certain ideals even if you do not agree with 90% of his policies. Lloyd-George was also critical of Mosley's Black Shirts, a somewhat unusual stance if he agreed with the actual policies of the Nazi's.

What this all seems to boil down to is that Lloyd-George made a visit to Germany and then returned to Britain and said some positive things about Germany at that time. It is the interpretation of these comments that you say indicate he was 'pro-Nazi' along with his long held anti-Communist views. You have no specific example of him actively proclaiming support for a policy by name, or suggesting such a policy should be adopted in Britain, or at least if you have you have not bothered to produce it here so far. Would you agree with this summary so far?


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Darth Vader
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#108

Post by Darth Vader » 23 Jun 2013, 23:45

Whether or not you consider him a pro-Nazi, his favourable bias towards Adolf Hitler should not be excused.
I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#109

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 Jun 2013, 17:54

Hi DV,

But surely, that is the most excusable part.

By all accounts Hitler was (1) a torrential talker who monoplised conversation and rarely answered a question, (2) an unscrupulous liar prepared to say almost anything for effect and (3) strangely charismatic in person. Time and again one reads of otherwise rational people - German generals, Axis leaders, etc., - going to meet Hitler determined to make him face reality regarding their interests and yet coming away at least momentarily satisfied with his explanations and promises.

Lloyd George was simply one of many and, given that he met Hitler before Nazi atrocities got under way on an industrial scale, his gullibility is more excusable than most. It does him no credit, but it doesn't make him pro-Nazi.

Cheers,

Sid.

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redcoat
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#110

Post by redcoat » 25 Jun 2013, 01:05

Terry Duncan wrote:[. There were plenty of people and organisations that made comments very similar to those Lloyd-George made, Time Magazine even had Hitler as their 'Man Of The Year' for 1938 (published in Jan 1939) and most opinions were based on the perceived economic recovery of Germany which many viewed as almost miraculous rather than any specific endorsements of all elements of Nazi policies.
.
It should be noted that Time magazine made Hitler 'Man of The Year' because of his influence on European politics in this period, not because it approved of him. In fact the accompanying article in the magazine was highly critical of him and warned that his aggressive foreign policy would eventually lead to a major war.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 39,00.html

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Terry Duncan
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#111

Post by Terry Duncan » 25 Jun 2013, 03:53

Yes, I have read the article in full. It rather skips over the numerous human rights problems in Germany, not to mention other Nazi policies now deemed totally unacceptable. Time Magazine made Hitler man of the year, attesting to his great effect on the world, but when Lloyd-George says he is 'a man greater than Napoleon' that is somehow only possible to interpret in a way positive to Nazism especially when you consider the general British view of Napoleon was and is far from positive? Lloyd-George skips over controversial Nazi policies and that is 'pro-Nazi' but when Time Magazine does the same it means nothing?

A so far unnamed British politician suggests war with Germany over Poland is far from justifiable, does that make him an appeaser - see my earlier post for the full quote? Trying to quote mine or base a case on a single article is deeply flawed. Oddly I do not really like Lloyd-George and have written many times to condemn his post-WWI lies, but I see little reason to brand him pro-Nazi based on anything I have read or seen presented here so far.

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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#112

Post by Sid Guttridge » 25 Jun 2013, 12:17

Hitler, like Napoleon, was a "great, bad man". Napoleon was the greater, Hitler the "badder".

Good or bad, both were the dominant personalities of their era and I wouldn't argue with either being named Man of the Decade, or perhaps even Century.

1938 was Hitler's best year. In it he achieved almost everything he had claimed to want internationally and with little bloodshed. Who else was in the running for Man of the Year?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Darth Vader
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#113

Post by Darth Vader » 29 Jun 2013, 08:39

Hello Sid

If David Lloyd George was no pro-Nazi, why do you think that his article is often used by neo-Nazi organisations to promote their ideology?
I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#114

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Jun 2013, 13:31

I have seen no evidence of all these supposedly numerous neo-Nazi citations. As this forum is apolitical, perhaps you could PM me with a few accesible examples.

In any case, I think you may have partly answered your own question - they have a political, not historical, agenda to, as you say, "promote their ideology" and in pursuit of this supposed higher goal tend to accept lower standards of historical evidence than do more dispassionate observers.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Darth Vader
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#115

Post by Darth Vader » 29 Jun 2013, 22:21

In any case, I think you may have partly answered your own question - they have a political, not historical, agenda to, as you say, "promote their ideology" and in pursuit of this supposed higher goal tend to accept lower standards of historical evidence than do more dispassionate observers.
Why quote David Lloyd George, whom you insist, was no pro-Nazi?
I find your lack of faith disturbing.

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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#116

Post by David Thompson » 30 Jun 2013, 05:11

Darth Vader -- You asked:
If David Lloyd George was no pro-Nazi, why do you think that his article is often used by neo-Nazi organisations to promote their ideology?
and
Why [do some neo-Nazi organizations] quote David Lloyd George, whom you insist, was no pro-Nazi?
If so, so what? And why are you asking someone else to explain it? That's your job.

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Andy H
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#117

Post by Andy H » 30 Jun 2013, 11:05

Darth Vader wrote:
If so, so what? And why are you asking someone else to explain it? That's your job.
I am not the one minimising this man's support for an ideology whose present adherents frequently quote.
Hi DV

It could be said and has indeed been said in so many words that your doing the exact opposite, by extrapolating to the nth degree, minimal, overly specific musings etc to support your POV.
You've failed to provide a broader range of proof or evidence to support the (often) grander contexts your promoting. Other members have constantly asked for such information from you, but you continue to obfuscate that duty by re-interpreting a question asked of you by asking a question back.
You are the one trying to convince US that your theory has some legs, it's beholden upon you to convince US and not the other way around!

Regards

Andy H

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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#118

Post by ljadw » 30 Jun 2013, 13:02

Do you have proofs that LG admired Hitler as a leader,sympathized with nazi Germany as a regime,and was strongly impressed by nazism as an ideology ? Yes,or no ?

BTW,a lot of people were impressed by the realizations of the Third Reich,without being nazis.

During the war,Churchill qualified Rommel as a great general,does this qualify Churchill as a sympathizer of Germany,of the Wehrmacht,of nazism ?

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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#119

Post by Crazy_Ivan » 30 Jun 2013, 15:18

The wheels are just spinning on this thread. You can't start a topic produce very little if any evidence and then tell us we need to prove that he is not a Nazi.

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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#120

Post by David Thompson » 30 Jun 2013, 18:27

An assortment of fact-free rubbish posts from Darth Vader were removed by this moderator - DT.
The research sections of the forum are meant for persons who are fairly well-informed on the topics being discussed, and our discussions are not directed at the lowest common denominator of readership. Rural customs of discourse, such as feigned ignorance, pettifogging, playing at peek-a-boo, fact-free repartee, redundant and uninformative posts, and/or "stonewalling" denials of facts well-known to most informed persons, are strongly disfavored here.

The object of the research sections of the forum is to exchange information, not to engage in dim wrangling as a form of diversion. Our readers are intelligent people, who have already taken the time to inform themselves on the topic under discussion and don't have a lot of time to waste playing games. Shrill and highly polemical posts are also strongly disfavored.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53962

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