David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

[Darth Vader]

You have to prove that he was advocating the regime

The article in my first post clearly was advocating Nazi Germany.

You also have to prove that Halifax was pro nazi.

In 1936 Lord Halifax visited Nazi Germany for the first time. Halifax's friend, Henry "Chips" Channon reported: "He told me he liked all the Nazi leaders, even Goebbels, and he was much impressed, interested and amused by the visit. He thinks the regime absolutely fantastic." http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWhalifaxL.htm

Til now,you have proved nothing,only repeated claims .

The fact that David Lloyd George was a pro-Nazi seems to be an incomprehensible concept.

[Andy H]

Hi DV

I've answered your question concerning 'sympathy & pro', could you please do me the service of now answering mine!

Regards

Andy H

[Darth Vader]

DV seems to be arguing that the Nazi party was pro-Lloyd George

Nowhere have I argued "that the Nazi Party was pro-Lloyd George."

This may sound rather too flippant

It is flippant.

You cannot equate being pro-Hitler as an individual to being pro-Nazism

Hitlerism equates to Nazism, as any dictionary will tell you.

Showing admiration for a person, does not mean you are 'pro' to that person's overall worldview.

Showing admiration for that person's regime does.

evidence is needed of him exposing support/endorsing specific Nazi-party policy, views or programmes.

“If the Powers succeed in overthrowing Nazism in Germany, what would follow? Not a Conservative, Socialist or Liberal regime, but extreme Communism. Surely that could not be their objective. A Communist Germany would be infinitely more formidable than a Communist Russia.” http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRgeorge.htm

“In a very short time, perhaps in a year or two, the Conservative elements in this country will be looking to Germany as the bulwark against Communism in Europe. She is planted right in the center of Europe, and if Germany is seized by the Communists, Europe will follow; because the Germans could make a better job of it than any other country. Do not let us be in a hurry to condemn Germany. We shall be welcoming Germany as our friend.” http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Aobn ... d.&f=false

nor anything out of line with DLG's own 'small l liberal' views.

Liberalism and Nazism sit on different ends of the political spectrum.

Anti-Nazi views - such as those of Churchill - were rather a rarer thing in a UK parliamentarian.

So if anti-Nazis inside the British Parliament did exist, Lloyd George chose not to be one.

Having a personal admiration for the leader of a group does not mean that they endorse said group

In the case of Adolf Hitler, yes it does.

[Darth Vader]

Hello Andy

There is no difference between sympathy for Nazism and pro-Nazism as both views entail support for the same cause.

[ljadw]

You have to prove that he was advocating the regime

The article in my first post clearly was advocating Nazi Germany.

You also have to prove that Halifax was pro nazi.

In 1936 Lord Halifax visited Nazi Germany for the first time. Halifax's friend, Henry "Chips" Channon reported: "He told me he liked all the Nazi leaders, even Goebbels, and he was much impressed, interested and amused by the visit. He thinks the regime absolutely fantastic." http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWhalifaxL.htm

Til now,you have proved nothing,only repeated claims .

The fact that David Lloyd George was a pro-Nazi seems to be an incomprehensible concept.

It is unwise to trust some one as J.Simkin,and to give only a partial review of what Channon wrote :

The quote of Channon was the following :

"I had a long conversation with Lord Halifax about Gemany and his recent visit .He described Hitler's appearance,his kkaki shit,black breeches and patent leather evening shoes.He told me he liked all the Nazi leaders,even Goebbels,and he was much impressed,interested and AMUSED by the visit. He thinks the rgime absolute fantastic,PERHAPS EVEN TOO FANTASTIC TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.But he is very glad he went,and thinks good may come of it. I was rivetted by all he said and reluctant to let him go ."

Given the fact that Halifax knew that Channon would tell everything at his guests who were inviting him at their country-houses,it is obvious that Halifax told Channon only some condescending couleur locale gossip about some Kraut who was not educated at Eton and Oxford,while keeping the important things for the cabinet ,and,the quote of Channing does not give the picture of a pro Nazi Halifax.

[Darth Vader]

It is unwise to trust some one as J.Simkin

Then why have you quoted him?

"I had a long conversation with Lord Halifax about Gemany and his recent visit .He described Hitler's appearance,his kkaki shit,black breeches and patent leather evening shoes.He told me he liked all the Nazi leaders,even Goebbels,and he was much impressed,interested and AMUSED by the visit. He thinks the rgime absolute fantastic,PERHAPS EVEN TOO FANTASTIC TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.But he is very glad he went,and thinks good may come of it. I was rivetted by all he said and reluctant to let him go ."

He thought the regime fantastic nonetheless.

the quote of Channing does not give the picture of a pro Nazi Halifax.

This quote does: "Herr Chancellor, on behalf of the British Government I congratulate you on crushing communism in Germany and standing as a bulwark against Russia." http://struggle.ws/freeearth/fe1_britain.html

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi DV,

I suggested at the end of my last post that you may be wasting everyone’s time here.

Your first paragraphs in your reply illustrate that you may be engaged in worse – deliberate distortion.

You quoted me as writing, “You seem to suggest that, if one expresses approval of ‘making the trains run on time’ one is automatically a supporter of Fascism.”

You replied, “Nowhere have I suggested that David Lloyd George expressed approval of "making the trains run on time."”

In fact you edited my earlier post so that its content is distorted.

What I actually wrote was, “You seem to suggest that, to use an analogy, if one expresses approval of ‘making the trains run on time’ one is automatically a supporter of Fascism. Sorry, but a desire to make the trains run on time is not the exclusive preserve of Mussolini and his cohorts, any more than anti-Communism is the exclusive preserve of Nazism. If it was, Churchill was pro-Nazi.”

If you cannot engage in an honest debate, I would suggest that this thread be closed.

An even more disappointed Sid.

[Andy H]

Hello Andy

There is no difference between sympathy for Nazism and pro-Nazism as both views entail support for the same cause.

Hi DV

You've not explained how or why you think that!

1 Swallow doesn't make a Summer, and equally a few words of sympathy doesn't equate to a full blown supporter of every policy a political party has!

Regards

Andy H

[Terry Duncan]

He thought the regime fantastic nonetheless.

This is not what he said. Do you somehow change the meaning of the entire quote just because the word 'Fantastic' is included? The comment was 'PERHAPS EVEN TOO FANTASTIC TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY' and not "He thinks the regime absolutely fantastic." so it has clearly been altered to create a false impression. The former comment is clearly not saying the regime is 'fantastic' in any approving way, rather it is suggesting it is unbelievable.

In that speech he clearly agrees with the Nazis' anti-Communism. Presumably you do know how to interpret speeches.

Yes and obviously significantly better than you do. Anti-Communism was a belief common to most political parties in the western world in the 1920's and 1930's so in itself it does not signify anything more than not liking Communism. So once again I will ask you what Nazi policies did Lloyd-George specifically endorse? Where he specifically identified a key policy of the Nazi party and clearly said so. If you cannot do so it shows you have no case and wish to engage in circular argument to no purpose, in which case Andy H may as well lock this thread.

[Darth Vader]

Hello Sid

I suggested at the end of my last post that you may be wasting everyone’s time here.

...and I suggested that you were wasting your own time by responding.

In fact you edited my earlier post so that its content is distorted.

Nothing was included in that post which you yourself had not mentioned.

You seem to suggest that, to use an analogy, if one expresses approval of ‘making the trains run on time’ one is automatically a supporter of Fascism. Sorry, but a desire to make the trains run on time is not the exclusive preserve of Mussolini and his cohorts, any more than anti-Communism is the exclusive preserve of Nazism. If it was, Churchill was pro-Nazi.

Until then I had made no mention of "making the trains run on time."

If you cannot engage in an honest debate, I would suggest that this thread be closed.

Why would you engage in a debate which you felt to be "dishonest?" :roll:

[Darth Vader]

Hello Andy

You've not explained how or why you think that!

I have explained that both views share a commonality.

a few words of sympathy doesn't equate to a full blown supporter of every policy a political party has!

David Lloyd George said much more than just a few words of sympathy.

[Terry Duncan]

The fact that David Lloyd George was a pro-Nazi seems to be an incomprehensible concept.

Because it is a fact in your mind only, and one you seem lacking in evidence to support.

[Darth Vader]

This is not what he said.

That is what he said.

The comment was 'PERHAPS EVEN TOO FANTASTIC TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY'

Followed by "But he is very glad he went, and thinks good may come of it."

The former comment is clearly not saying the regime is 'fantastic' in any approving way

Lord Halifax approved of all the Nazi leaders, he approved of their regime.

Yes and obviously significantly better than you do.

Finally, you have used your initiative.

So once again I will ask you what Nazi policies did Lloyd-George specifically endorse?

In the words of historian Richard Griffiths: "A major politician who was strongly impressed by Nazism at this stage, but whose main public statements on the matter were to come later, after a visit to Hitler in 1936, was Lloyd George." http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tRRo ... ud_r&cad=6

[ljadw]

It is unwise to trust some one as J.Simkin

Then why have you quoted him?

"I had a long conversation with Lord Halifax about Gemany and his recent visit .He described Hitler's appearance,his kkaki shit,black breeches and patent leather evening shoes.He told me he liked all the Nazi leaders,even Goebbels,and he was much impressed,interested and AMUSED by the visit. He thinks the rgime absolute fantastic,PERHAPS EVEN TOO FANTASTIC TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.But he is very glad he went,and thinks good may come of it. I was rivetted by all he said and reluctant to let him go ."

He thought the regime fantastic nonetheless.

the quote of Channing does not give the picture of a pro Nazi Halifax.

This quote does: "Herr Chancellor, on behalf of the British Government I congratulate you on crushing communism in Germany and standing as a bulwark against Russia." http://struggle.ws/freeearth/fe1_britain.html

And this quote means : the usual platitudes a visitor is adressing to his guest .Or,maybe you expect Halifax to say : Adolf,I communicate you the big anger of the British government about the persecution of the Jews,the unions, socialists,chuches,etc?

Unless you have specific exemples of Halifax praising publicly the nazi regime and suggesting the introducing od nazi measures in Britain,you have no point ;all you are doing is starting a witch hunt,75 years after the facts :Edward VII=A nazi,Lloyd George =a nazi,Halifax= a nazi ,etc ;

The readers will also observe that Channon said :I had a long conversation with Halifax about his visit to Germany ....

And,what do we know from this conversation ? The clothes of Adolf,they were all friendly,I was amused,the whole thing is to fantastic to be taken seriously,but,I am glad that I went,and,maybe,the visit will have positive results .

Thus : only insignifiant blahblah,and why? Because Channon wassomeone neglectable and a well-known chatterbox .
Maybe you are expecting Lord Emsworth to tell the family secrets to his butler Beach ?

[Darth Vader]

And this quote means

The quote means what it says.

maybe you expect Halifax to say : Adolf,I communicate you the big anger of the British government about the persecution of the Jews,the unions, socialists,chuches,etc?

Why not?

Unless you have specific exemples of Halifax praising the nazi regime

I have provided you with specific examples whether you want to accept them or not.

all you are doing is starting a witch hunt,75 years after the facts

You are engaging in that witch hunt, seventy-five years after the facts.

:Edward VII=A nazi,Lloyd George =a nazi,Halifax= a nazi

King Edward VII died in 1910 so he could not possibly have been a pro-Nazi.

The readers will also observe that Channon said :I had a long conversation with Halifax about his visit to Germany

Which he did.

And,what do we know from this conversation ?

We know that Lord Halifax liked all the Nazi leaders and thought the regime fantastic.

Because Channon wassomeone neglectable and a well-known chatterbox .

You not only distrust the author John Simkin but Henry Channon who knew Halifax on a personal basis.
You certainly know how to pick and choose.