David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

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Terry Duncan
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#91

Post by Terry Duncan » 21 Jun 2013, 18:48

You not only distrust the author John Simkin but Henry Channon who knew Halifax on a personal basis.
With regards to Channon you are linking to reports of what he said Lloyd-George said, not what Lloyd-George actually said so it is a 2nd or 3rd hand account at best. That has to be unreliable unless it can be supported with 1st hand evidence. Do you actually have any?

As to Simkin, he has a certain bias to his work that makes him suspect on some issues and can be said to endorse positively far fetched ideas on others (see his JFK Assassination views for some points) so when using his writings or editings they again needs to be checked against 1st hand sources.

The are Lloyd-George's memoirs as well as Parliamentary minutes that can be checked to see 1st hand accounts of his views and beliefs, plus several biographies for more direct second hand evidence. Why are you not using any of these sources?

One other important question arises. Why do you think everyone else here disagrees with you and for exactly the same reasons?

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Darth Vader
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#92

Post by Darth Vader » 21 Jun 2013, 19:00

That has to be unreliable unless it can be supported with 1st hand evidence.
Only now are you questioning the validity of the quotations made.
As to Simkin, he has a certain bias to his work that makes him suspect on some issues and can be said to endorse positively far fetched ideas on others (see his JFK Assassination views for some points)
Why would he be biased in relation to David Lloyd George, who died eighteen years before the JFK Assassination?
Why are you not using any of these sources?
You did not ask.
Why do you think everyone else here disagrees with you and for exactly the same reasons?
As has been previously mentioned, certain folks cannot accept history except on their own limited terms.
I find your lack of faith disturbing.


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Terry Duncan
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#93

Post by Terry Duncan » 21 Jun 2013, 19:52

Only now are you questioning the validity of the quotations made.
I already questioned your edited version of the full quote in the previous post, and I am simply pointing out that you are offering nothing from 1st hand evidence.
Why would he be biased in relation to David Lloyd George, who died eighteen years before the JFK Assassination?
When he is prone to adopting extreme positions that cannot be supported by evidence on one issue it leaves his objectivity on all other issues also in question. A person willing to make huge leaps of faith on one subject is quite likely to do the same on others.
You did not ask.
I shouldnt have to ask you to present a proper case rather than a half-arsed one relying on unique interpretations of limited documentation. You are making the claim, it is up to you to support it as best you can.
As has been previously mentioned, certain folks cannot accept history except on their own limited terms.
Or of course, you are wrong and making far too much from far too little documentation.

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Darth Vader
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#94

Post by Darth Vader » 21 Jun 2013, 21:49

I already questioned your edited version of the full quote in the previous post
"This is not what he said" is a statement.
I am simply pointing out that you are offering nothing from 1st hand evidence.
Evidence is evidence.
A person willing to make huge leaps of faith on one subject is quite likely to do the same on others.
That logic could be applied to any author whom you disagree with.
I shouldnt have to ask you to present a proper case rather than a half-arsed one relying on unique interpretations of limited documentation.
You asked for a link that does not stem from the one newspaper article.
You are making the claim, it is up to you to support it as best you can.
Which you will continue to repeat until you have had the last word...
Or of course, you are wrong and making far too much from far too little documentation.
A minority view does not equal the wrong view.

In the words of historian Richard Griffiths: "A major politician who was strongly impressed by Nazism at this stage, but whose main public statements on the matter were to come later, after a visit to Hitler in 1936, was Lloyd George." http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tRRo ... ud_r&cad=6
I find your lack of faith disturbing.

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Terry Duncan
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#95

Post by Terry Duncan » 21 Jun 2013, 22:38

"This is not what he said" is a statement.
It calls into question the reason for using edited evidence rather than the correct detail.
Evidence is evidence.
The further away from the originator it gets, the more prone to distortion. That is why original documents are most important.
That logic could be applied to any author whom you disagree with.
It can apply to any author I agree with too, hence the need to consult authors known to stick to pure facts as much as possible.
Which you will continue to repeat until you have had the last word...
I was rather hoping you might actually post something of substance as requested. The last word is not that important if you can show you are right, I just question why you are so lacking in any real evidence and so desperate to stick to extremely flimsy material if you think you really do have a case.
In the words of historian Richard Griffiths: "A major politician who was strongly impressed by Nazism at this stage, but whose main public statements on the matter were to come later, after a visit to Hitler in 1936, was Lloyd George." http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tRRo ... ud_r&cad=6
The link just shows Lloyd-George wanted to come to an understanding with Germany, something common from many Great War spokesmen who felt Germany had been unfairly dealt with at Versailles, it does not advocate any Nazi policy.
A minority view does not equal the wrong view.
It does not mean you are right either. There is still at least a good chance you are wrong. More importantly, why do you think everyone has found the same flaw in your case as well as not agreeing with it?

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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#96

Post by David Thompson » 22 Jun 2013, 01:17

Let's drop the repartee posts and start seeing on-topic sourced facts. Our readers come here for information about historical issues. They're not getting what they came to see, and this thread is headed for a padlock.

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Darth Vader
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#97

Post by Darth Vader » 22 Jun 2013, 08:54

In the words of historian Richard Griffiths: "A major politician who was strongly impressed by Nazism at this stage, but whose main public statements on the matter were to come later, after a visit to Hitler in 1936, was Lloyd George." http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tRRo ... ud_r&cad=6
The link just shows Lloyd-George wanted to come to an understanding with Germany, something common from many Great War spokesmen who felt Germany had been unfairly dealt with at Versailles, it does not advocate any Nazi policy.
The link also shows that David Lloyd George was strongly impressed by Nazism.
The facts are there in black and white, literally.
Let's drop the repartee posts and start seeing on-topic sourced facts. Our readers come here for information about historical issues. They're not getting what they came to see, and this thread is headed for a padlock.
If you wish to lock this topic, be my guest.
I find your lack of faith disturbing.

ljadw
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#98

Post by ljadw » 22 Jun 2013, 10:41

To be impressed by nazism does not mean that one is pro-nazi.

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Andy H
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#99

Post by Andy H » 22 Jun 2013, 11:43

Hi DV

I would second the previous post, that being impressed by something doesn't equate to anything other than being impressed.
If you interpret that differently then that's Ok, but you need to show how/why you interpret it (impressed) as being something more than just that.

You've also obfuscated your reply about how/why you view sympathy being the same as 'pro', other than you just do! Various members are asking you basically the same question, yet your replying with minimal evidential material and mostly 2nd hand. The fact that people haven't asked you for specific cited sources isn't a Get out of Jail Free card which you seem to view it as, given the responses you've given.

Your the member making the claim about DLG, your the one who should be putting forth the strongest case & evidence to support it, yet in my humble opinion its seems to be based upon a liberal and minimal interpretation & connectivity of certain words, phrases and statements.

I came into this thread knowing next to zilch about DLG interactions with pre-WW2 Germany, especially any 'support' for Nazism/Hitler. I'm not surprised by some of the general thoughts concerning Germany, Hitler, Communism or international anti-semitism, which were rife with certain circles of society in the 30's. However I've yet to see any real evidence to back up your claims. I couldn't give a fig if he was pro-Nazi, at least I've expanded my knowledge if he was but as yet you've failed to show in a concrete context that DLG was a pro-Nazi.

Regards

Andy H

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Darth Vader
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#100

Post by Darth Vader » 22 Jun 2013, 14:06

Hello Andy

You have responded well and wisely so I shall respond to your post as best I can.
I would second the previous post, that being impressed by something doesn't equate to anything other than being impressed. If you interpret that differently then that's Ok, but you need to show how/why you interpret it (impressed) as being something more than just that.
Being impressed does not equate to anything other than being impressed. However, in the case of the Third Reich, Nazism was not all that impressed David Lloyd George. Impress means to make someone feel admiration and respect. Nazism impressed Lloyd George so he therefore admired and respected Nazism.
You've also obfuscated your reply about how/why you view sympathy being the same as 'pro', other than you just do!
Then I must apologise. I should have illustrated how the shared factor in both sympathy for a cause and pro that cause is support for the cause. Whether or not you would define someone as a sympathiser or a pro, that someone is nevertheless a supporter.
Your the member making the claim about DLG, your the one who should be putting forth the strongest case & evidence to support it, yet in my humble opinion its seems to be based upon a liberal and minimal interpretation & connectivity of certain words, phrases and statements.
I started this topic because I wanted to know if any other members felt that David Lloyd George's reputation as a statesman should be diminished because of his views on Nazism. I presumed that his interaction with pre-war Germany was common knowledge on this forum.
I came into this thread knowing next to zilch about DLG interactions with pre-WW2 Germany, especially any 'support' for Nazism/Hitler. I'm not surprised by some of the general thoughts concerning Germany, Hitler, Communism or international anti-semitism, which were rife with certain circles of society in the 30's. However I've yet to see any real evidence to back up your claims. I couldn't give a fig if he was pro-Nazi, at least I've expanded my knowledge if he was but as yet you've failed to show in a concrete context that DLG was a pro-Nazi.
So far in this thread, no one has denied that David Lloyd George admired Adolf Hitler, sympathised with Nazi Germany and was strongly impressed by Nazism yet no one will accept this as pro-Nazism.

I would like to know why...
Last edited by Darth Vader on 22 Jun 2013, 16:47, edited 1 time in total.
I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Crazy_Ivan
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#101

Post by Crazy_Ivan » 22 Jun 2013, 14:20

Because it is not pro-Nazism, the only person on here suggesting it is, is you. People have explained very clearly why they think it is not and you are just being blinkered.

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Darth Vader
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#102

Post by Darth Vader » 22 Jun 2013, 16:04

I like blinkers. 8-)

Why do you think that admiration for Adolf Hitler, sympathy for Nazi Germany and being strongly impressed by Nazism is not pro-Nazism, Crazy Ivan?
I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Crazy_Ivan
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#103

Post by Crazy_Ivan » 22 Jun 2013, 16:15

Would it make an iota of difference what I write, sorry but when you suggest his dislike of communism is proof of his pro-Nazism I think your mind is well and truly made up. And with regards to the what the Nazi's perpetrated on mankind there is a quote some-where that I will dig up where Lloyd George pretty much declares them to be pretty awful.

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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#104

Post by David Thompson » 22 Jun 2013, 16:32

A fact-free repartee post from Darth Vader, which added nothing of value to the discussion, was removed pursuant to the thread warning posted at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1800849 - DT.

Crazy_Ivan
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Re: David Lloyd George's pro-Nazi views

#105

Post by Crazy_Ivan » 22 Jun 2013, 16:51

Lloyd George and the Lost Peace: From Versailles to Hitler 1919-1940
Anthony Lentin

As per Professor Alan Sharp's review of the book.
He could have added that both were consummate liars but there was always the saving grace that, despite Lloyd George's public praise for Hitler's achievements, he never approved his methods - political and religious persecution and concentration camps were all 'a terrible thing to an old Liberal like myself'.

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