British Army at home September 1940

Discussions on all aspects of the The United Kingdom & its Empire and Commonwealth during the Inter-War era and Second World War. Hosted by Andy H
Locked
User avatar
sitalkes
Member
Posts: 471
Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 01:23

Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1156

Post by sitalkes » 30 Oct 2014, 04:49

I don't know why they would jump off the rails, but if you read the newspaper clipping above, it says that's what happened to the 86 ton Folkestone gun the first time they fired it - that sounds to me like the gun has to be properly immobilised before firing, and presumably it takes some time to get it moving again.

Clive Mortimore
Member
Posts: 1288
Joined: 06 Jun 2009, 23:38

Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1157

Post by Clive Mortimore » 30 Oct 2014, 09:57

sitalkes wrote:I don't know why they would jump off the rails, but if you read the newspaper clipping above, it says that's what happened to the 86 ton Folkestone gun the first time they fired it - that sounds to me like the gun has to be properly immobilised before firing, and presumably it takes some time to get it moving again.
For the 9.2 inch gun to jump off the rails, the crew had not set the outriggers correctly.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Categ ... iagram.jpg
Clive


Gooner1
Member
Posts: 2776
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 13:24
Location: London

Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1158

Post by Gooner1 » 30 Oct 2014, 15:53

From WO 146/346 XII CORPS: Commander Royal Artillery (CRA)

As regards super heavy artillery September 1940.

4/9 - Trains complete and all personnel of 4 Super Heavy Battery at ASHFORD. 5 Super Heavy Battery at Canterbury. (Appendix 2)

9/9 All shore guns to be placed under Army control, control of 4" guns to pass on 14 Sep. Details of roles of 14" and 13.5" guns and of Counter Battery organization. (Appendix 5)

9/9 - Equipments being sent to REDHILL for 12 Corps and will consigned as follows:- 4 9.2" to ASHFORD, 2 12" to CANTERBURY, 2 12" to LENHAM [spelling?} (Appendix 6)

9/9 - One 9.2" gun in action at HYTHE. 1 12" How. in action at EYTHORNE. (Appendix 7)

10/9 - One 9.2" Gun being despatched from SHOEBURYNESS TO REDHILL. (Appendix 10)

24/9 - One Gun (9.2") 4 Super Heavy Battery HYTHE in action. One gun (9.2") FOLKESTONE in action. 2 Hows (12") 5 Super Heavy Battery in action SHEPHERDSWELL, 2 Hows (12") 37 Super Heavy Battery in action EYTHORNE, 1 gun (9.2") "Y" Super Heavy Battery in action BRIDGE, 2 Guns (9.2") "X" Super Heavy Battery in action LITTLESTONE, 2 Hows (12") 47 Super Heavy Battery in action LYMINGE. (Appendix 21)

24/9 Additional allotments of 4 12" Hows and 2 9.2" Guns with details of suggested sites. (Appendix 22)

24/9 Decided to form three new Super Heavy Batteries 7th, 8th and 9th. W.O. letter with details dated 16/9/40, enclosed. (Appendix 23)



I wonder what the Germans were doing on the 24th?

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1159

Post by phylo_roadking » 30 Oct 2014, 17:50

24/9 - One Gun (9.2") 4 Super Heavy Battery HYTHE in action. One gun (9.2") FOLKESTONE in action. 2 Hows (12") 5 Super Heavy Battery in action SHEPHERDSWELL, 2 Hows (12") 37 Super Heavy Battery in action EYTHORNE, 1 gun (9.2") "Y" Super Heavy Battery in action BRIDGE, 2 Guns (9.2") "X" Super Heavy Battery in action LITTLESTONE, 2 Hows (12") 47 Super Heavy Battery in action LYMINGE. (Appendix 21)
I'll have to ask on ww2talk for some of the guys there to check their copies of the war diaries for that date - just to confirm that "in action" meant an actual shoot, as opposed to "operational". That reads like a LOT of "action" to go otherwise unrecorded!

Personally - it reads as one of two things; 1/ practice shoots across the force, or 2/ that's the various batteries getting the guns collected at Redhill for them...
9/9 - Equipments being sent to REDHILL for 12 Corps and will consigned as follows:- 4 9.2" to ASHFORD, 2 12" to CANTERBURY, 2 12" to LENHAM [spelling?} (Appendix 6)
...
10/9 - One 9.2" Gun being despatched from SHOEBURYNESS TO REDHILL. (Appendix 10)
...and becoming operational.

At least it DOES give us a date for X Super Heavy battery still being at Littlestone as of the 24th of September; in the meantime, I've had the formation of 3rd Suoer heavy regiment on the 1st of November confirmed...and it appears that there's an internet perpetuated misprint around many OOBs - it was, according to a couple of RA heads on ww2talk, 3rd Super Heavy Battery in France, and the first of November was indeed the first creation of 3rd Super Heavy Regiment.

The second page of its war dairy, still dealing with the creation of the unit, goes on to list the assets under the command of the regiment...and its at THAT point that we see the first available mention of the X Super Heavy battery being "in a siding at Golden Wood". Which all means that sometime between 24/9 and 1/11 X Battery shifted both its HQ and its guns from Littlestone to the Ashford area.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1160

Post by phylo_roadking » 30 Oct 2014, 18:35

I note that the Folkestone gun was positioned just west of the short tunnel leading to the coastal line to Dover - what would be the chances of getting it into that tunnel in the event of an air attack? Could any of these guns fire, retreat into a tunnel to reload, and then come out again to fire, or does that result in the jumping off the rails problem?
Why would they jump off the rails? They are designed to fire on the rails, with the 13.5 inch guns and the 18 inch howitzer there is a small amount of recoil along the track but most of the recoil is taken up in the design of the gun carriage and mounting, as it is in guns on road wheels, on ships or fixed barbettes.
The outriggers are indeed part of the answer to safe, stabilised shooting - but for the larger guns there was another aspect to them actually staying on the rails when fired... http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/feat ... dex6.shtml
The Elham Valley Railway was quickly made ready for the arrival of HMG Boche-Buster. Four brick magazines were built in the cutting north of Bishop Park tunnel and steps were cut into the banks either side of the southern portal of the tunnel where the gun would be housed. The military, it could be said, owed quite a debt to the stubborn Matthew Bell and his insistence that an unnecessary tunnel should be built so as not to spill the view from his bedroom window.

Huge timber baulks were installed beneath Railway Hill and Barrackers Road bridges to support the girders as the 250 ton gun far exceeded the weight limit of the line. The SR’s platelaying gang were busily engaged in relaying certain sections of track between Bishopsbourne and Barham with 24 sleepers per 45 ft length instead of the regulation 18 and reballasting this with fine granite chippings.
...
After initial training at Catterick Camp the battery moved south arriving at Bishopsbourne in February 1941 after a 43 hour journey from Catterick disguised as a string of banana wagons. On the bright spring morning of 13th February 1941, the gun was pushed out of the tunnel by a WD diesel engine, through Bishopsbourne station to the Kingston spur, where it was fired for the first time sending several rounds into the English Channel.

Although the villagers had been warned to open all their windows, considerable damage was caused in Kingston and Barham by the shock waves which brought down a number of ceilings. As a result, only two other test firings were made near World’s Wonder bridge and at Lickpot bridge. It was on one of these trips that an officer in charge, on cautioning his men to be mindful of the low bridges, was promptly knocked unconscious himself as the gun passed underneath South Barham bridge! Apart from the blast damage the track had to be strengthened every time it was fired.
I wonder if firings of the 9.2in weapons revealed any weaknesses on the sections of track where they were used...
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1161

Post by phylo_roadking » 30 Oct 2014, 19:39

Gooner - regarding what was happening on the 24th...as far as I can see, nothing pertaining to the Super Heavies. Adolf Galland got the oak leaves to his Knight's Cross, the King broadcast to Britain and the Empire announcing the creation of the George Cross, the Supermarine factory at Woolston was bombed...I've had a look at navalhistory.net, nothing appropriate there at all - it was the middle of Op MENACE, but I don't think they could fire as far as Dakar...and the Vichy French bombed Gibraltar again. They were pissed off. Again...
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4896
Joined: 25 Aug 2008, 10:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1162

Post by Urmel » 31 Oct 2014, 01:32

For the 24th on Seekrieg there is only one entry, of an E-Boat raid in the Great Yarmouth area. No activity in the Channel.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Knouterer
Member
Posts: 1661
Joined: 15 Mar 2012, 18:19

Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1163

Post by Knouterer » 31 Oct 2014, 09:30

I think we can safely assume that "in action" is just careless language on the part of the officer writing the WD and that he meant "ready for action". Particularly as we already know that the Folkestone gun fired its first shot in anger on 18.10.
I had a quick look in passing at the WD of the battery. It states that a shot was fired at E-Boats 24,000 yards away in the Channel - which sounds like a waste of ammunition, but perhaps it was meant more as practice - and that the gun "derailed" and was back on the track the next day. 24,000 yards, by the way, is a bit more than the maximum range of 22,600 yds as indicated by Ian V. Hogg.
You'd think that with all the experience gained with those guns in WWI the drill for securing them - which included both outriggers resting on prepositioned concrete blocks and heavy chains or steel cables, as I understand - would be well established and laid down in manuals, but perhaps not everybody read the manuals.
More details and quotes later.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1164

Post by phylo_roadking » 31 Oct 2014, 19:35

I think we can safely assume that "in action" is just careless language on the part of the officer writing the WD and that he meant "ready for action". Particularly as we already know that the Folkestone gun fired its first shot in anger on 18.10.
There's detail in the 3rd SH Regt. war diary that would indicate that "in action" did mean operational as opposed to an actual fighting shoot. In the descritpion given of "Y" battery as of the 1st of November, the diary notes...
..This battery had two 9.2" guns, one at Grove Ferry, and the other, which was {something indistinct} "in action", at Canterbury.
Note the parenthesis - those are NOT mine, it's written just like that in the war diary. I've a feeling the word that's not distinct is "not"...as in - "...which was not "in action"..." - because at the bottom of that page, after a list of the officers of the battery, it notes that -
The gun of this battery that was in action (my emphasis) covered fire zone HERNE BAY to MINSTER.
Rob Dickers on ww2talk unfortunately doesn't have the war diaries for the 4th, 6th and12th SH Btys covering September...because of course, well before 1st November and the formation of the 3rd Sh Regt., they're the units constituted and filling in war diary entries!

However - he did supply the following short article...from the Royal Artillery Commemoration Book;

Image

Note particularly - "Frequent regimental and battery practice shoots were carried out, both out to sea and at Larkhill and Okehampton, ..."

Note also the comment that they were kept on their "battle locations" until the invasion threat passed; one of the often-forgotten facts about the summer and autum of 1940 was that normal civilian rail services south of Ashford and Canterbury were cancelled for those months - leaving the lines free for military traffic and military use.

Regarding this...
I had a quick look in passing at the WD of the battery. It states that a shot was fired at E-Boats 24,000 yards away in the Channel - which sounds like a waste of ammunition, but perhaps it was meant more as practice - and that the gun "derailed" and was back on the track the next day. 24,000 yards, by the way, is a bit more than the maximum range of 22,600 yds as indicated by Ian V. Hogg.
You'd think that with all the experience gained with those guns in WWI the drill for securing them - which included both outriggers resting on prepositioned concrete blocks and heavy chains or steel cables, as I understand - would be well established and laid down in manuals, but perhaps not everybody read the manuals.
A couple of the railway history sites I read through in passing yesterday and the day before noted that the railway guns left in the UK as of November 1918 were testing and experimental types; some of the 9.2" guns were for instance on amended chassis where the firing platform of the gun was below the level of the bogie axles for greater stability - looking not unlike WWII era "warwells" - (Clive will know what I mean). There's not a lot of actual hard information about the guns themselves about either - we don't know for instance if the gun in question was ever fired before, let alone in anger...we don't know what the specific variations between types were apart from the amended firing platform height comment...etc, etc..
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

Knouterer
Member
Posts: 1661
Joined: 15 Mar 2012, 18:19

Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1165

Post by Knouterer » 31 Oct 2014, 23:17

Probably not such a good idea to rely on "railway history sites" as a a source of definitive information on artillery.

As far as I can make out, in 1939/40 all of the remaining 9.2 inch railway guns were Mk XIII; according to Hogg, after WWI of this type of gun "...only the most efficient of the later wartime designs were retained, scattered throughout military depots all over Britain and generally forgotten." Meaning, presumably, that everything else, including experimental models if there were any, was scrapped.

According to this Wikipedia article, 9.2 inch railway guns (all types) fired 45,000 rounds in WWI, which in my humble opinion should have been enough to determine what those guns could and could not do, and how to handle them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_9.2-inch_Railway_Gun
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1166

Post by phylo_roadking » 01 Nov 2014, 00:16

Probably not such a good idea to rely on "railway history sites" as a a source of definitive information on artillery.

As far as I can make out, in 1939/40 all of the remaining 9.2 inch railway guns were Mk XIII; according to Hogg, after WWI of this type of gun "...only the most efficient of the later wartime designs were retained, scattered throughout military depots all over Britain and generally forgotten." Meaning, presumably, that everything else, including experimental models if there were any, was scrapped.
The 9.2" guns...the actual artillery pieces...were all MkXIIIs - but were the mounts ALL MkIVs? And were the "trucks" all the same...

You see - "railway guns" aren't just the guns - they're ALSO their running gear, engines etc. - everything that made up the actual "train". And as Clive knows, the only "rivet counters" worse than military history ones are railway historians and enthusiasts!
According to this Wikipedia article, 9.2 inch railway guns (all types) fired 45,000 rounds in WWI, which in my humble opinion should have been enough to determine what those guns could and could not do, and how to handle them.
Skills and knowledge can die away quite rapidly; 1940 was 22 years after the end of the First World War. On the outbreak of WWII, the only officer in the British Army with experience of railway guns was Major SM Cleeve, hence why he played such a role in recovering the capability through 1939 and 1940, and set up the Super Heavy Artillery School at Catterick. And who had also fired the legendary "King's Shot" from HMG Bochebuster in WWI...

There may have been manuals - but we don't know how easy WWI manuals were to track down and check/reprint or adapt as necessary; it looks from the IWM site that the 1917 handbook was less than half the size of the 1940 handbook with half the illustrations. If it wasn't substantially re-written and extended...then it was at least re-formatted. Finding all the guns took a while; HMG Bochebuster took some finding, only to be tracked down in a shed covered in cobwebs :P Remember that Harold Skaarup's book noted that the problem was the men, not the guns; finding "enough men with training on medium, heavy and coastal equipment."

It may not sound like a great problem - but the Emergeny Batteries had already had to have crews found for them before and during the summer...totalling hundreds up and down the country, remembering all the gun batteries established on port and harbour mouths around the country as well as those along the coast; a lack of trained and experienced officers meant WWI officers still on reserve status had to be brought of out retirement and put back into uniform for those (see Newbold). And there certainly wouldn't have been much time to fully train railway gun crews from scratch, given how late in the summer they were formed/equiped; Orde's comments on the railway gun crews needing field artillery training during their deployment on the rails is telling.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

Knouterer
Member
Posts: 1661
Joined: 15 Mar 2012, 18:19

Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1167

Post by Knouterer » 01 Nov 2014, 18:10

War Establishment for a Super Heavy 9.2 Inch Rail Gun Battery (WE III/1931/11C/1), according to Philson:
Consisting of headquarters and 2 sections.
Personnel: Battery Headquarters: Major, Battery Sgt major, troop sgt major, battery QM sergeant, signal sergeant, 4 bombardiers, 20 gunners, 3 drivers
Each section: Subaltern, sergeant, 2 bombardiers, 14 gunners
Transport: Battery HQ: 2 motorcycles, 1 x 4-seat car, 2 x 15cwt trucks fitted with hand cable layers; each section: 1 motorcycle.
Weapons: 2 pistols, 24 rifles, 2 LMG, 2 9.2 inch Mk XIII BL on railway mounting
That makes 68 men in all if my count is correct, 32 in the Battery HQ and 18 per section. I wonder which one of the 3 officers didn’t get a pistol (revolver)? Perhaps the major was supposed to bring his own.

According to a note dated 7.10.1940 in the WD of the Corps Commander Medium Artillery (C.C.M.A.) of XII Corps (WO 166/347), the “first line scale of ammunition” (carried on flatcars/mineral wagons) was 60 rounds per gun for the 12 inch railway guns, and 80 r.p.g. for the 9.2 inch guns. The same document puts the strength of a 12in bty at 112 men including R.E. (railroad troops), and mentions that the W.E. of the 9.2in btys will be increased to 83 plus R.E. personnel.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

Knouterer
Member
Posts: 1661
Joined: 15 Mar 2012, 18:19

Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1168

Post by Knouterer » 01 Nov 2014, 19:30

And a picture of one of the 12in howitzers of the 5th Super Heavy Battery, from David G. Collyer, Deal and District at War.
This I think is the Mk V rather than the Mk III which was also still in service. According to Hogg (again ...) this howitzer could fire a 750 lb/340 kg shell at up to 14,350 yds/13,165m.

Unsurprisingly, there was some uncertainty and disagreement about what the railway guns were to be used for, according to the WD of the C.C.M.A. under whose command they were, but by mid-Oct. it had been worked out that their task was "...to defeat any enemy attempt to land tanks and other heavy stores either on beaches or in ports and to destroy any stores which the enemy may succeed in landing; to defeat any attempt by the enemy to improve landing facilities for troops by erection of jetties or by construction of corduroy roads over the shingle; to support counter attacks (...); to defeat any attempt by the enemy to move up reinforcements or to manœuvre his troops."

A few of the 9.2in guns also had anti-shipping tasks for which purpose they would be under control of the Commander Fixed Defences (C.F.D.) - "Fixed Defences" referring to the permanently installed coast artillery guns at Dover (and elsewhere).
Attachments
5thSHbattery 001.jpg
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1169

Post by phylo_roadking » 01 Nov 2014, 20:11

Unsurprisingly, there was some uncertainty and disagreement about what the railway guns were to be used for, according to the WD of the C.C.M.A. under whose command they were, but by mid-Oct. it had been worked out that their task was "...to defeat any enemy attempt to land tanks and other heavy stores either on beaches or in ports and to destroy any stores which the enemy may succeed in landing; to defeat any attempt by the enemy to improve landing facilities for troops by erection of jetties or by construction of corduroy roads over the shingle; to support counter attacks (...); to defeat any attempt by the enemy to move up reinforcements or to manœuvre his troops."
Well, it's great that they got there in the end, but that was after all mid-October...

What's relevant to THIS thread is September, and that period of "uncertainty and disagreement"...what does the war diary say they were to be used for then?
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

Clive Mortimore
Member
Posts: 1288
Joined: 06 Jun 2009, 23:38

Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1170

Post by Clive Mortimore » 02 Nov 2014, 21:19

Hi all, one rivet counter and ex gun fitter here :)

The 9.2 inch guns were stored as complete equipment’s, therefore the gun documents should have remained with the guns this is from my experience as a gun fitter. There should have been no problem with the manuals as they would be with the guns.

Training raw recruits to fire a complex weapon takes time. Each new battery raised would have a cadre of experienced senior gunnery NCOs, their only problem would have been familiarity with the new gun.

I would not base too much on the account of Major Cleeve and the Bosch Buster. While I do not dispute the truth of the story, Hogg had to fill the chapter about a gun that was well publicised during the war, which never fired a shot in anger, with something.

Major Cleeve might have been the only serving artillery officer with experience of the large railway guns but how many reserve or TA officers had served with the 9.2 inch gun and 12 inch howitzer batteries?

Without having to disect every post can we conclude that in the area of the potential invasion were a collection of 9.2 inch railway guns that in the event of the said invasion would have been able to contribute to the defence of Britain.
Clive

Locked

Return to “The United Kingdom & its Empire and Commonwealth 1919-45”