A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

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John Hilly
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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#31

Post by John Hilly » 03 Nov 2013, 15:58

Sheldrake wrote:As a post war FOO I have never had the luxury of a specialised OP vehicle. It was always a standard APC or tank, What was an FOO supposed to do with the extra space in a SAheman with the gun removed?
Those days they needed extra room for the extra radios.

This is from the 7th AD's page, http://www.desertrats.org.uk/equiparmou ... tm#Sherman

As of Sherman AOP:
"An AOP version was provided to the artillery, which in order to accommodate the extra radios needed for this role, had the 75mm gun replaced with a wooden dummy one, though the hull and co-axial machine guns were retained."

And of Cromwell AOP:
"The tank went through eight marks including an AOP version, for artillery observers, which retained the 75mm gun and was equipped with two extra No. 19 radios in the turret and one in the hull, but as they carried no trained gunner, it was not that effective. To achieve this some of the BESA machine gun ammunition bins were removed, which meant the crew had a limited quantity to defend themselves against infantry attack. The 75mm gun was operational including the ammunition which was kept in the radio operator's seat and in bins outside the turret basket in the corners of the compartment. The very nature of an AOP tank meant that it could assist the leading units of the Division and remain intact at the same time. The tank was commanded by an Artillery surveyor, usually a Major or Captain, who brought two radio operators with him, the remaining operator was from my the Armoured Brigade HQ Squadron. The crew of an AOP could call on the artillery regiment to mark a target with pink smoke to guide the Typhoons from 2nd Tactical Air Force or the artillery could bombard the target directly."

With best,
J-P :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#32

Post by Gary Kennedy » 03 Nov 2013, 19:57

Sheldrake,

Light tanks you'd have to assume Stuarts certainly, but I can't say I've ever seen anything to indicate they were used in that role in NWE at least (Mid-east and Italy would be different again).

Canadian records for May 1944 indicate they were only using Shermans or Rams as OP tank (CMHQ141 refers, should pop up on a web search).

55 Sherman OPs required (just 11 held)
32 Ram OPs required (all held)

At a guess the 55 Shermans would have been for the two Armd Bde HQs (total 16) and the three SP Regts of 3rd (Cdn) Inf Div in its assault role format (total 39 Shermans), with the 32 Rams split across the Armd Div (13 for the SP Regt, 6 for the towed, total 19) and the 'spare' SP Regt (19 RCA) that went in with 3rd (Cdn) Inf Div (13 total).

Overall 21 Army Gp AFV returns for Jan 1945 (the earliest I've seen) only list Cromwell and Sherman OP tanks for the RA specifically as OP tanks. Extra radios do seem to have taken up the space in the turret, as noted above.

Gary


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Don Juan
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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#33

Post by Don Juan » 04 Nov 2013, 19:05

In Ian Carter's "Centaur and Cromwell in Camera" book, there's another photo of a Centaur being prepared for storage at 8 AFV Depot in Leicester, alongside a long line of other stored tanks.

I'm wondering if 25th April 1944, or somewhere around that date, was when all the "non-battleworthy" tanks were finally mothballed prior to D-Day. Here's a picture of some Rams being put away at the same depot on the same date:
large (1).jpg
It seems there was a large-scale redistribution of equipment during this period. Nonetheless, Ram OP's apparently went to Normandy. This photo is subtitled "August 1944, Ram O.P. tank near Cintheaux, Normandy, during advance to Falaise", at the Ram tanks site:
ramopb.jpg
ramopb.jpg (86.71 KiB) Viewed 1409 times
"The demonstration, as a demonstration, was a failure. The sunshield would not fit the tank. Altogether it was rather typically Middle Easty."
- 7th Armoured Brigade War Diary, 30th August 1941

Clive Mortimore
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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#34

Post by Clive Mortimore » 05 Nov 2013, 02:26

My understanding of the OP tanks is as follows. At Armoured or Tank Brigade level were a collection of 8 tanks for Royal Artillery officers use as OP tanks when their regiment or battery was supporting the Brigade or its regiments. These would have been officers from artillery units without their own observation tanks. Reading the Trux section of WW2 Talk they appear on the 1945 establishment but not on the earlier 1943 ones but reading unit history’s they were in use before 1945.

Towed regiments in armoured divisions had 2 light tanks (Stuarts) for each troop as their OP tanks in place of the OP carriers found in infantry division artillery regiments. Some seem to have gained Shermans in place of the Stuarts.

Self-propelled regiments had 2 medium tanks (Ram or Sherman) for each troop as their OP tanks.

In reading various regiments history’s these OP tanks were gun tanks with extra radios and one less crewman. One history gives an account of the OP tank using its 75mm gun to take out a church tower where a sniper was holding up some infantry.


Yours

Clive
Clive

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Urmel
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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#35

Post by Urmel » 05 Nov 2013, 22:29

Sidenote, I remember reading in one of the Delaforce books (I think) about an 'armoured' OP that was issued a pre-production tank made from soft steel. Looked like the real thing, and the crew prayed nobody tried to shoot at them.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#36

Post by Gary Kennedy » 05 Nov 2013, 22:53

The 8 OP tanks for Armd Bdes came in with amendment No.2 to II/101/3 of 26th March 1944. I don't have the one for the Tk Bde HQ but would expect it was the same date. The RAC OP tanks only had a driver-mechanic and a gunner-operator, leaving plenty of space for visitors. The same amendment added a third 3-tonner for ammunition. I'm not sure if this was an indication that the RAC OP tanks were gun armed, while the RA models were not. HQ for a Tk Bde Type "B" (CDLs) shows the Bde OP tanks with two No.19 sets, but radio fitting isn't noted in the Armd Bde HQ amendment.

3rd (Br) Div had Sherman OP tanks for the assault role, and these were still being clung onto into April 1945, long after they converted to all towed guns. I can't recall seeing any other OP tanks in 21AG listings for 1945.

Certainly AFV returns for 21AG don't show any Stuart light tanks in the OP role for 1945, if they had them earlier they were all dumped by January. Entitlements and Establishments are in agreement on the issue of OP tanks, with 19 per Armd Div, 6 for the towed Regt, one per Troop cmdr and 13 for the SP Regt, one for the Regtl CO, one per Troop cmdr and one per GPO.

Gary

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#37

Post by Spontoon » 06 Nov 2013, 03:29

Kind of lost the thread here. What happened to all the Cavaliers?

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#38

Post by Urmel » 06 Nov 2013, 12:37

Nobody seems to know, so instead we talk about stuff we do know. It's called 'thread evolution', Darwin would be proud.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Don Juan
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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#39

Post by Don Juan » 06 Nov 2013, 14:29

Spontoon wrote:Kind of lost the thread here. What happened to all the Cavaliers?
Tucked away in warehouses around Britain from April 1944 onwards, it would seem. It wouldn't surprise me if there's a warehouse somewhere on the outskirts of Leicester that still has a few dozen A24's inside it. A bit like the way they keep finding warehouses stuffed with old unsold 60's records.

We need TO&Es of 9th, 11th, 79th and Guards Armoured Division for Apr '43 to Apr '44 to get some idea of how many A24's were used within the RAC - I believe only a handful, and in 9th AD only.

Cavaliers within RA units not attached to the RAC is anyone's guess. As 21 AG don't appear to have been using OP tanks outside of the armoured brigades, I suspect those RA regiments using them in the UK, like 65th Medium Regiment, were just messing around with them, rather than using them doctrinally.
"The demonstration, as a demonstration, was a failure. The sunshield would not fit the tank. Altogether it was rather typically Middle Easty."
- 7th Armoured Brigade War Diary, 30th August 1941

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#40

Post by Leo Niehorster » 07 Nov 2013, 10:44

If you want particular details about British War Establishments (British designation for Tables of Organization & Equipment) applicable for Operation Neptune, these are given in Gary Kennedy's fantastic nine volume series "British Army of World War II — War Establishment Tables, Northwest Europe, June 1944 – May 1945".

For an abbreviated version see: :wink:
http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain ... 4_org.html

Cheers
Leo
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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#41

Post by phylo_roadking » 17 Nov 2013, 19:58

A bit like the way they keep finding warehouses stuffed with old unsold 60's records.
...and let's not forget the MoD's stores of trench duckboards and WWI-era detachable shoes for mules...
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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#42

Post by Spontoon » 17 Nov 2013, 21:28

You mean somewhere there's a warejouse crammed with Cavaliers and pet Clark records? Hold me back!

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#43

Post by Sheldrake » 17 Nov 2013, 23:33

phylo_roadking wrote:
A bit like the way they keep finding warehouses stuffed with old unsold 60's records.
...and let's not forget the MoD's stores of trench duckboards and WWI-era detachable shoes for mules...
Nahh all lost in the fire in Donnington?

FADFO....

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#44

Post by Spontoon » 29 Nov 2013, 07:56

I think I found one! Anyone identify the tank used in the movie " A Hill in Korea"? Doesn't quite look like a Cromwell to me.

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#45

Post by Don Juan » 14 Feb 2014, 14:06

Richard Hartley in Tankette 42/3 states that in January 1945, the French received 43 Cavalier Mk.I's, 57 Centaur Mk.I's and 40 Crusader Mk.III's, all armed with 6-pounders with the exception of at least 3 Cavalier OP tanks. The Cavaliers served in the 4e Cuirassiers, and all the British cruiser tanks were scrapped in the early 50's, with some of the turrets being sent to French Indo-China to be mounted on blockhouses to protect the railways against the Viet Minh.

There's a couple of piccies of these tanks here: http://www.chars-francais.net/new/index ... &Itemid=36

So that's 43 Cavaliers we can chalk off as being accounted for.
"The demonstration, as a demonstration, was a failure. The sunshield would not fit the tank. Altogether it was rather typically Middle Easty."
- 7th Armoured Brigade War Diary, 30th August 1941

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