Deal and the Downs 1940

[sitalkes]

Anybody got any information on the defences of the Deal area in 1940? Would they have stood up to an attack coming from Dover? Any idea what the port capacity would be or how many ships could have anchored behind the Downs in 1940?

Wikipedia and the Deal museum website say: Deal is eight miles north-east of Dover and eight miles south of Ramsgate. Close to Deal is Walmer, a possible location for Julius Casear’s first arrival in Britain. Deal was at one time the busiest port in England, with up to 800 ships being visible from the beach (source: Deal maritime museum). The Downs provided a naturally sheltered anchorage. There was no wharf. Goods were moved from ship to shore by small boats. The anchorage is still used today by international and regional shipping, The anchorage has depths down to 12 fathoms (22m). The Downs served as a permanent base for warships patrolling the north Sea in the age of sail. They formed a safe anchorage during heavy weather, protected on the east by the Goodwin Sands and the north and west by the coast. Even during southerly gales some shelter was afforded, though under those conditions wrecks were not infrequent.
Deal was a base for the Royal Marines and had a dockyard. The Royal Marines Siege Regiment manned the nearby cross-channel guns at St Margaret’s Bay. There were three Tudor castles at Sandown, Deal, and Walmer.

[phylo_roadking]

Well, talking of St Margaret's Bay (the guns, Winnie and Pooh, were on top of the cliffs above the Bay )...

Here's ANOTHER formation in the area...
http://forum.commandoveterans.org/cdoFo ... /3041.page

...No.5 Commando! And some details of the Dover Defence Scheme as it applied to the St. Margaret's Bay area...

Appendix "R" to Dover Defence Scheme, 1940.

Defence Scheme, St Margaret?s Bay Area ("B" Sector)

This scheme holds good only as long as No. 5 Commando is in the area.

1) Area is bounded on the North by A.6 Sub-Area; to NE by A.2 Su-Area and to S.W. by troops holding the Perimeter defences Dover, (see para.3 and Appendix Tracing "A" and Appendix Tracing "R".)

2) Troops in Area.

1) No. 5 Commando
2) "F" Coy, 6 (BD) Bn The Buffs, less 1 pl.
3) Royal Marine Siege Battery.
4) Det. 34 Sig Trng Regt. R.A. ? Lighthouse 787611
5) Det. 34 Sig Trng Regt. RA ? Martin Mill 776657
6) Detachments of Home Guard at:-
a) St. Margaret's Bay
b) Martin
c) Guston

All of the above troops for ground defence are under the operational Command of O.C. No.5 Commando.

In addition, the following A.A. and searchlight posns are in the area and in the event of ground defence also come under the operational Command of O.C. No.5 Commando: -

Heavy AA D.2 - 791611

L.A.A. 13 - 790627 14 - 794622 15 - 790618 16 - 785622 9 - 787616 3 - 783613 1 - 795607

S/L 2/4 - 812629 2/3 - 795610 3/6 - 788630

3) All units and dets in the area with the exception of No.5 Commando have a static defence role as under: -

(1) RM. Siege Bty are solely responsible for the manning of their guns and in the event of an emergency will defend them to the last.

(2) "F" Coy, 6 (BD) Buffs, less 1 pl, will be responsible for the manning of pillboxes around the siege guns and for operating the Lyon Lights on St. Margaret?s beach and for any other guards found necessary in St. Margaret's at Cliffe, St. Margaret's Bay and Lighthouse.

(3) Det, 34th Sig Trng Rgt. R.A. at Lighthouse 798611, protection of searchlight.

(4) Det, 34th Sig Trng Rgt. R.A. at Martin Mill, the protection of the Pumping Station and Rd Block 777652.

(5) Dets of Home Guard. Protection of their own localities against parachute or airborne troops in immediate vicinity of their location.

4) No.5 Commando is primarily responsible for the siege and heavy guns in the area. These at present consist of:-
1) R.M. Siege Bty.
2) Bty of 5.5" guns of Fixed Defences at 813629

In order to carry out this role No.5 Commando must be prepared to carry out the following: -

1) The prompt destruction of any parachute or airborne enemy troops landing in the area.

2) The immediate recapture of St. Margaret"s Bay Beach should it be lost.

To carry out No. (1) a wide dispersion is necessary. Disposition of troops will be as under: -

2 Troops 5 Commando area GUSTON
2 Troops 5 Commando area EAST LANGDON
2 Troops 5 Commando area MARTIN

These Troops will carry out active patrolling duty during day and night.

To carry out (2) dispositions will be taken up as follows: -

1 Troop will be responsible for the beach defence of St. Margaret's Bay (including manning of 2 MMG?s)

1 Troop will be in immediate support on line 807622 to 810625 to cover the sea approaches with A.T. rifle fire and be prepared to carry out an immediate counter-attack on the beach.

2 Troops will be held in reserve around H.Q. Commando.

Communications.

HQ No.5 Commando is at Curfew House, St. Margaret?s at Cliffe.

One thing that is NOT mentioned there, or in the War Diary extracts on page two of that thread....is the submarine detector loop station in St Margaret's Bay that would have been a vital installation to guard.

[sitalkes]

Well that's all very interesting, but St Margarets Bay faced south, while the beaches in Deal were to the north of that area and faced East, so the defences of St Margarets would have been of little use except against landings there and passing shipping. I take your point though that the troops in the St Margarets area would have resisted any attempt to move from Dover eastwards (assuming they weren't already involved in a battle for Dover).

[phylo_roadking]

Well...ONE element of the defence was - our old friends MILFORCE! They had a two-part counterattaking role depending on where they were ordered to...either the counterattacking mission that had been discussed several times on the forum towards Folkestone that would have taken then into contact wth the FJ at or around Lympne...

But an alternative conditional deployment for them was an alternative start line and crosscountry sweep that would have brought them out to the coast in the vicinity of Deal! They got about a bit...

[phylo_roadking]

ONE thing that Deal's defenders didn't have any longer to deny the enemy the use of...was its PIER! This had been demolished in and after january 1940 - a Dutch cargo ship the Nora was beached on the south side of it after being crippled by a mine but the rising tide then lifted her clear of the beach, and proceeded to smash her repeatedly against the side of the pier's superstructure and eventually the bulk of the pier neck collapsed. Winston Churchill gave the army permission to demolish the remains, leaving only the shoreward tollbooths remaining.

Deal also had its own Emergency Battery of 2x6in MkXIII guns in naval mounts; the Battery was built in late May/June 1940, right in front of the Castle, with the BOP being built onto Deal Castle itself!