The Bren Gun and the Lewis Gun

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phylo_roadking
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Re: The Bren Gun and the Lewis Gun

#46

Post by phylo_roadking » 14 May 2014, 23:40

A forum member asks a question and not being a relevant poster at your opinion?
But OK, no problem, I think all/most of the other readers here are able to understand how the ballistics are in reality.
Wrong question ;) You should have asked how I measured "relevance" in this context...
No, more about the unsourced assumptions posted here
:phylo_roadking wrote:
The "successive 15 point failure-by-15 point failure routine gone through to determine which fault applied"
Unsourced? Source provided several pages ago AND the actual material reproduced from Neil Grant's book - where Harry Fellowes recounts being shown a single drill that ran through each stoppage type in turn. That's "successive". As I said - it must just be your problem with English syntax and grammar. No problem though. The rest of us can take Fellowes' account on board verbatim.
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Re: The Bren Gun and the Lewis Gun

#47

Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 May 2014, 19:45

phylo_roadking wrote:
A forum member asks a question and not being a relevant poster at your opinion?
But OK, no problem, I think all/most of the other readers here are able to understand how the ballistics are in reality.
Wrong question ;)
Yes, sadly seems that too difficult to be answered here.
phylo_roadking wrote:
No, more about the unsourced assumptions posted here
:phylo_roadking wrote:
The "successive 15 point failure-by-15 point failure routine gone through to determine which fault applied"
Unsourced? Source provided several pages ago AND the actual material reproduced from Neil Grant's book - where Harry Fellowes recounts being shown a single drill that ran through each stoppage type in turn. That's "successive".
Yes, unsourced, or the only source here being you.
Here again the changes:
Juha Tompuri #31 wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote:The stoppages were indeed broken down into three groups in relation to where the cocking lever sat when the stoppage occured...if you care to look back I DID say this already :roll:
Yes.
You started with quite correct information...
phylo_roadking at post #9 wrote:The 1940 manual for the Lewis Gun, "The Lewis Gun Mechanism Made Easy"....lists fifteen possible reasons for stoppage, grouped according to where in its travel the cocking lever stopped when the gunner took his finger off the trigger -
...but at the same post...
phylo_roadking wrote:what if you had to get all the way through the drill to Number Fifteen to clear the problem? :lol: :lol: :lol:
...and then came the:
phylo_roadking at post #18 wrote:successive 15 point failure-by-15 point failure routine
...including...
phylo_roadking at post #18 wrote: unlike the Lewis Gun, the Vickers' did NOT need a successive 15 point failure-by-15 point failure routine gone through to determine which fault applied; like the Bren, the cause of each separate stoppage was identifiable or could be clustered by type of symptom into much shorter clearance drills than the Lewis Gun :wink:
...continuing, and now introducing new ideas about cocking lever position indications...
phylo_roadking at post #21 wrote: the ONLY external indicator of where the problem could possibly lay was the position of the cocking lever when the stoppage occured....
...including...
phylo_roadking at post #21 wrote: The point is that the stoppage may indeed be cleared at point ONE....but it likewise might be cleared at point TEN or TWELVE or FIFTEEN. The drill as taught involved stripping the weapon down to its component parts and inspecting each for certain issues or conditions - because the ONLY external indicator of where the problem could possibly lay was the position of the cocking lever when the stoppage occured....but getting down to the various issues that occured at the various points in the lever's travel meant starting the strip-down "drill" at the beginning and continuing right through it until the stoppage was found. There was no way to "short circuit" the strip-down to get to points ten or twelve or fifteen - if the problem lay towards the end of the drill, the no.2 had to go right through the strip-down and examination drill to get there.
phylo_roadking wrote:As I said - it must just be your problem with English syntax and grammar. No problem though. The rest of us can take Fellowes' account on board verbatim.
ChristopherPerrien #22 wrote:There is something amiss here. Earlier you mention there were 15 possible reasons for a Lewis gun stoppage and somehow this morphed into a 15 point drill.
BTW...you seem not to have noticed this one:
Juha Tompuri #39 wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote:I take it you haven't read Grant's book then... :wink:
Have you?
Regards, Juha


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Re: The Bren Gun and the Lewis Gun

#48

Post by phylo_roadking » 15 May 2014, 23:12

Unsourced? Source provided several pages ago AND the actual material reproduced from Neil Grant's book - where Harry Fellowes recounts being shown a single drill that ran through each stoppage type in turn. That's "successive".
Yes, unsourced, or the only source here being you.
No, sourced to Neil Grant/Harry Fellowes. I can't help it that you can't grasp the English syntax and grammar concerned, but that's not my problem.
Here again the changes:
Juha Tompuri #31 wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote:
The stoppages were indeed broken down into three groups in relation to where the cocking lever sat when the stoppage occured...if you care to look back I DID say this already Yes.
You started with quite correct information...
phylo_roadking at post #9 wrote:
The 1940 manual for the Lewis Gun, "The Lewis Gun Mechanism Made Easy"....lists fifteen possible reasons for stoppage, grouped according to where in its travel the cocking lever stopped when the gunner took his finger off the trigger - ...but at the same post... phylo_roadking wrote:
what if you had to get all the way through the drill to Number Fifteen to clear the problem?
...and then came the:
phylo_roadking at post #18 wrote:
successive 15 point failure-by-15 point failure routine...including...
phylo_roadking at post #18 wrote:
unlike the Lewis Gun, the Vickers' did NOT need a successive 15 point failure-by-15 point failure routine gone through to determine which fault applied; like the Bren, the cause of each separate stoppage was identifiable or could be clustered by type of symptom into much shorter clearance drills than the Lewis Gun ...continuing, and now introducing new ideas about cocking lever position indications...
phylo_roadking at post #21 wrote:
the ONLY external indicator of where the problem could possibly lay was the position of the cocking lever when the stoppage occured.......including...
phylo_roadking at post #21 wrote:
The point is that the stoppage may indeed be cleared at point ONE....but it likewise might be cleared at point TEN or TWELVE or FIFTEEN. The drill as taught involved stripping the weapon down to its component parts and inspecting each for certain issues or conditions - because the ONLY external indicator of where the problem could possibly lay was the position of the cocking lever when the stoppage occured....but getting down to the various issues that occured at the various points in the lever's travel meant starting the strip-down "drill" at the beginning and continuing right through it until the stoppage was found. There was no way to "short circuit" the strip-down to get to points ten or twelve or fifteen - if the problem lay towards the end of the drill, the no.2 had to go right through the strip-down and examination drill to get there.

phylo_roadking wrote:
As I said - it must just be your problem with English syntax and grammar. No problem though. The rest of us can take Fellowes' account on board verbatim.ChristopherPerrien #22 wrote:
There is something amiss here. Earlier you mention there were 15 possible reasons for a Lewis gun stoppage and somehow this morphed into a 15 point drill.
Oh, I didn't realise it was the syntax/grammar issue affected your understanding of those :roll: But it does explain a lot...

THESE...
The stoppages were indeed broken down into three groups in relation to where the cocking lever sat when the stoppage occured...if you care to look back I DID say this already
The 1940 manual for the Lewis Gun, "The Lewis Gun Mechanism Made Easy"....lists fifteen possible reasons for stoppage, grouped according to where in its travel the cocking lever stopped when the gunner took his finger off the trigger -
the ONLY external indicator of where the problem could possibly lay was the position of the cocking lever when the stoppage occured....
...are about the stoppages themselves...

THESE...
what if you had to get all the way through the drill to Number Fifteen to clear the problem? :lol: :lol: :lol:
unlike the Lewis Gun, the Vickers' did NOT need a successive 15 point failure-by-15 point failure routine gone through to determine which fault applied;
successive 15 point failure-by-15 point failure routine
...are about the clearance drill Lewis gunners were taught to clear stoppages. You know - THIS one...

"...we were shown a drill to run through "Number One Stoppage, Number Two Stoppage, Number Three Stoppage" and so on"

BTW...you seem not to have noticed this one:
Juha Tompuri #39 wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote:
I take it you haven't read Grant's book then... Have you?
I perused a friend's first edition at the start of April. Better than his Bren gun book, I thought.
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Re: The Bren Gun and the Lewis Gun

#49

Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 May 2014, 07:05

phylo_roadking at post #21 wrote:No, sourced to Neil Grant/Harry Fellowes. I can't help it that you can't grasp the English syntax and grammar concerned, but that's not my problem.
No, Neil Grant is not a source for your assumptions about stoppage removal procedure
phylo_roadking wrote:what if you had to get all the way through the drill to Number Fifteen to clear the problem? :lol: :lol: :lol:
or
phylo_roadking at post #18 wrote: unlike the Lewis Gun, the Vickers' did NOT need a successive 15 point failure-by-15 point failure routine gone through to determine which fault applied
or
phylo_roadking at post #21 wrote: The point is that the stoppage may indeed be cleared at point ONE....but it likewise might be cleared at point TEN or TWELVE or FIFTEEN.
or
phylo_roadking at post #21 wrote: There was no way to "short circuit" the strip-down to get to points ten or twelve or fifteen - if the problem lay towards the end of the drill, the no.2 had to go right through the strip-down and examination drill to get there.

The part of Harry Fellowes at Grant book you are using as a source just describes the stoppage removal training.
Not the stoppage removal process.

Regards, Juha

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Re: The Bren Gun and the Lewis Gun

#50

Post by Clive Mortimore » 16 May 2014, 20:38

Is there a list of these 15 potential stopages and the drill to clear them? I wish I could remember all the ones for the L4 LMG (7.62mm version of the Bren) because the rarer ones had the gun in bits.

All the weapons I fired in the army had a stoppage drill which you were taught before you were allowed to fire them.

Even then new ones appeared from time to time. I had two as a gun fitter with the 105mm light gun that were not in the drill book. First one was gun fired, flame out the barrel (night shoot, it looked great). No bang reported by the OP. Gun position cleared, the range Master Gunner turned up and asked had the gun fitter looked at the gun......off I go. I opened the breach and was expecting a shell (with armed fuse) to fall out with the cartridge case, my thoughts were the gun had fired the driving band down the range. Still alive. No shell. So the crew counted the unfired shells and cartridge cases. Gun not firing properly because no bugger had put a shell in.

Gun not firing, all looked correct, the crew had been through all the drills and again with me, I changed the firing box. They let me pull the firing lever, still no bang. There should have been a metal cap covering the air valve for the recuperator,I noticed it was missing and with that one of the crew spotted it. It had worked lose and was trapped and squashed between the recuperator and the cradle. The gun had not gone back fully into battery. The electrical connections between the breach and the firing box were a couple mm away from each other. It was the only time I saw the gear used to unload a shell rammed home on the driving band. I left the army soon afterwards, all I hope it was added to the gun not firing drill.
Clive

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Re: The Bren Gun and the Lewis Gun

#51

Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 May 2014, 20:55

Clive Mortimore wrote:Is there a list of these 15 potential stopages and the drill to clear them?

Here is one WWII era manual (the one mentioned at the Grant book) - pages 14-20
http://replicaplans.com/LewisGun/LewisR ... unMech.pdf

That and some more from different periods of time:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1873677


Regards, Juha
Last edited by Juha Tompuri on 16 May 2014, 21:12, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Bren Gun and the Lewis Gun

#52

Post by Juha Tompuri » 17 May 2014, 23:09

phylo_roadking wrote:
BTW...you seem not to have noticed this one:
Juha Tompuri #39 wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote:
I take it you haven't read Grant's book then... Have you?
I perused a friend's first edition at the start of April. Better than his Bren gun book, I thought.
Just asked this one because of one of my previous questions:
Juha wrote:As interesting or even more would be the number and weight of the spare parts the AA-gunners had to/were carrying around.
...and the answer received:
phylo_roadking wrote:while Neil Grant's book doesn't given an actual weight - he does note that when a WWI infantry setion equiped with a Lewis Gun went into combat it was supposed to carrying 44 drum magazines as well as the box of spares AND the box of tools for the Lewis Gun. In addition to the gunner and the gunner's no.2 it took ANOTHER 8 men to carry all this... 8O
The Grant book however seems to give the weight of the, not a box, but a bag of spares, weighting 15lb.
http://books.google.fi/books?id=T8sfAwA ... 22&f=false

Regards, Juha

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Re: The Bren Gun and the Lewis Gun

#53

Post by phylo_roadking » 18 May 2014, 03:02

The part of Harry Fellowes at Grant book you are using as a source just describes the stoppage removal training.
Not the stoppage removal process.
Er....incorrect, it does;
In our training, we were shown a drill to run through "Number One Stoppage, Number Two Stoppage, Number Three Stoppage" and so on.
Why do you think they were being taught it? This was what the British Army did then....and still did by WWII - they taught by demonstration followed by rote/repetition - it's even gone down in our literary culture...http://www.solearabiantree.net/namingof ... parts.html

I'm beginning to think you don't actually grasp the work involved in stripping down, carrying out some of the remedial actions, THEN reassembling a Lewis Gun...
As interesting or even more would be the number and weight of the spare parts the AA-gunners had to/were carrying around....and the answer received:
phylo_roadking wrote:
while Neil Grant's book doesn't given an actual weight...
Which is quite correct; Grant doesn't give a figure for the weight a WWII Lewis Gun AA crew had to carry. The figures he gives are WWI figures for a Lewis Gun crew and infantry section.
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Re: The Bren Gun and the Lewis Gun

#54

Post by Juha Tompuri » 18 May 2014, 07:53

phylo_roadking wrote:
The part of Harry Fellowes at Grant book you are using as a source just describes the stoppage removal training.
Not the stoppage removal process.
Er....incorrect, it does;
In our training, we were shown a drill to run through "Number One Stoppage, Number Two Stoppage, Number Three Stoppage" and so on.
Why do you think they were being taught it?
That quote is from stoppage removal training and reveals the training process.
They were trained to remove all the possible stoppages.
That is not an example how a single stoppage was found out and removed.
phylo_roadking wrote:
As interesting or even more would be the number and weight of the spare parts the AA-gunners had to/were carrying around....and the answer received:
phylo_roadking wrote:
while Neil Grant's book doesn't given an actual weight...
Which is quite correct; Grant doesn't give a figure for the weight a WWII Lewis Gun AA crew had to carry. The figures he gives are WWI figures for a Lewis Gun crew and infantry section.
I asked about WWII era AA gun and you answered about WWI era infantry section:
phylo_roadking wrote:while Neil Grant's book doesn't given an actual weight - he does note that when a WWI infantry setion equiped with a Lewis Gun went into combat it was supposed to carrying 44 drum magazines as well as the box of spares AND the box of tools for the Lewis Gun. In addition to the gunner and the gunner's no.2 it took ANOTHER 8 men to carry all this... 8O
Regards, Juha

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Re: The Bren Gun and the Lewis Gun

#55

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 May 2014, 21:48

Juha Tompuri wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote:while Neil Grant's book doesn't given an actual weight - he does note that when a WWI infantry setion equiped with a Lewis Gun went into combat it was supposed to carrying 44 drum magazines as well as the box of spares AND the box of tools for the Lewis Gun. In addition to the gunner and the gunner's no.2 it took ANOTHER 8 men to carry all this... 8O
The Grant book however seems to give the weight of the, not a box, but a bag of spares, weighting 15lb.
http://books.google.fi/books?id=T8sfAwA ... 22&f=false
A WWI era Lewis manual http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-cont ... 915%29.pdf
pages 47-51 also mention a bag for carrying device for the spares and tools.
However at list of equipment etc. there are mentions of boxes, a tin box for small parts, "wallet, case, spare parts box" and 64 magazines carried in boxes.

Regards, Juha

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Re: The Bren Gun and the Lewis Gun

#56

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 May 2014, 22:05

That quote is from stoppage removal training and reveals the training process.
They were trained to remove all the possible stoppages.
That is not an example how a single stoppage was found out and removed.
The passage clearly reveals they were taught a single drill to work through all possible stoppages in a row...until they get to the one to be cleared -
"...we were shown a drill to run through "Number One Stoppage, Number Two Stoppage, Number Three Stoppage" and so on"
I asked about WWII era AA gun and you answered about WWI era infantry section:
No, I answered your question quite clearly...
Grant doesn't give a figure for the weight a WWII Lewis Gun AA crew had to carry.
I THEN gave the figures that Grant does contain for a ballpark indication...
...he does note that when a WWI infantry setion equiped with a Lewis Gun went into combat it was supposed to carrying 44 drum magazines as well as the box of spares AND the box of tools for the Lewis Gun. In addition to the gunner and the gunner's no.2 it took ANOTHER 8 men to carry all this...
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Re: The Bren Gun and the Lewis Gun

#57

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 May 2014, 22:50

phylo_roadking wrote:
That quote is from stoppage removal training and reveals the training process.
They were trained to remove all the possible stoppages.
That is not an example how a single stoppage was found out and removed.
The passage clearly reveals they were taught a single drill to work through all possible stoppages in a row...until they get to the one to be cleared -
"...we were shown a drill to run through "Number One Stoppage, Number Two Stoppage, Number Three Stoppage" and so on"
No they were not.
phylo_roadking at post #25 wrote:The stoppages were indeed broken down into three groups in relation to where the cocking lever sat when the stoppage occured...if you care to look back I DID say this already :roll:


phylo_roadking wrote:
I asked about WWII era AA gun and you answered about WWI era infantry section:
No, I answered your question quite clearly...
Grant doesn't give a figure for the weight a WWII Lewis Gun AA crew had to carry.
No,this is a colored version.
The original being:
phylo_roadking wrote:while Neil Grant's book doesn't given an actual weight - he does note that when a WWI infantry setion equiped with a Lewis Gun...
Yes.
phylo_roadking wrote:I THEN gave the figures that Grant does contain for a ballpark indication...
...he does note that when a WWI infantry setion equiped with a Lewis Gun went into combat it was supposed to carrying 44 drum magazines as well as the box of spares AND the box of tools for the Lewis Gun. In addition to the gunner and the gunner's no.2 it took ANOTHER 8 men to carry all this...
Juha wrote:...and you answered about WWI era infantry section
Yes.

Regards, Juha
Last edited by Juha Tompuri on 21 May 2014, 23:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Bren Gun and the Lewis Gun

#58

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 May 2014, 23:51

No they were not.
phylo_roadking at post #25 wrote:
The stoppages were indeed broken down into three groups in relation to where the cocking lever sat when the stoppage occured...if you care to look back I DID say this already
Yes, they were; the Harry Fellowes anecdote makes this quite clear. That above quote doesn't refer to what I said about the drill...it refers to what I said the manual said.
The 1940 manual for the Lewis Gun, "The Lewis Gun Mechanism Made Easy"....lists fifteen possible reasons for stoppage, grouped according to where in its travel the cocking lever stopped when the gunner took his finger off the trigger - whereas the equivalent years' manual for the Bren lists only eight.
Grant doesn't give a figure for the weight a WWII Lewis Gun AA crew had to carry.
No,this is a colored version.
No, it is not coloured, it's a direct quote from post 53 above.

You asked if he did, I told you very specifically he didn't.....but I DID give you the figures he does contain...and made it quite clear repeatedly what those figures he does give applied to...
Grant doesn't give a figure for the weight a WWII Lewis Gun AA crew had to carry. The figures he gives are WWI figures for a Lewis Gun crew and infantry section.
1/ while Neil Grant's book doesn't given an actual weight - he does note that when a WWI infantry setion equiped with a Lewis Gun went into combat it was supposed to carrying 44 drum magazines as well as the box of spares AND the box of tools for the Lewis Gun. In addition to the gunner and the gunner's no.2 it took ANOTHER 8 men to carry all this...
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Re: The Bren Gun and the Lewis Gun

#59

Post by Clive Mortimore » 22 May 2014, 19:34

Bren gun magazines were distributed amongst the section. Some men would also be carrying 2 inch mortar bombs as well.
Clive

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Re: The Bren Gun and the Lewis Gun

#60

Post by phylo_roadking » 22 May 2014, 20:04

Indeed - and the late 1930s change in webbing pattern reflected this...although, like many things British Army - some troops still went to France in 1939 and 1940 with the old pattern webbing and pouches. At least - juding by the occasional pic of them coming back with them... 8O
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