Canada's Role in WWII

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Michael Dorosh
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Re: Canada's Role in WWII

#16

Post by Michael Dorosh » 01 Aug 2014, 16:33

Kingfish wrote:
gambadier wrote:Eh, 1st Cdn Army comprised two corps until the beginning of 1945 - 1st Cdn Corps and 1st British Corps, in early 1945 is was joined by 2 Cdn Corps that had been in Italy. As I understand it the total of 3 inf and 2 armd divs in 1 Cdn Army was not reached until the 2nd corps arrived.
Overall you are correct but you have the Canadian Corps swapped around. 1st Canadian Corp fought in Italy, and was brought over in Operation Goldflake to join 1st Canadian army in NWE. 2nd Canadian Corp fought in Normandy and then on to the low countries.

The OOB for 1st Cdn Army varied, but generally consisted of the five Cdn divisions you mentioned, two Cdn independent armored brigades, the 1st Polish armd division and (I believe) the brigade-sized formations from both the Netherlands and Czechoslovakia. And of course the 1st British Corp.

BTW, two other Canadian formations that were not part of 1st Cdn Army are the 1st Canadian Parachute battalion and the 1st Special Service Force, a combined US/Canadian commando-type unit.
1st Canadian Army had to be heavily supported by British logistic support - check out the Army Troops lists sometime and it becomes apparent just how much. E.L.M. Burns also wrote about what a logistical drain the 1st Canadian Corps was on the British 8th Army when it was sent to Italy. Canada insisted on doing so, for political reasons, and because all those useless corps troops went with them, there were damaging infantry shortages in Normandy and Italy which had serious political ramification back home which eventually cost the Prime Minister his seat, as well as dethroned a couple of defence ministers. (Not to mention costing a lot of untrained and hastily remustered infantrymen their lives.)

There may have been a little bit of merit in having a corps in Italy, in that Canadian senior commanders had a place to earn battle experience. Crerar never commanded a formation in battle until he had the chance to command the 1st Corps on the quiet Arielli front. I wonder how much difference it made to his eventual command of 1st Canadian Army in NW Europe. Simonds did well as a division commander in Sicily, well enough to progress to II Cdn Corps and his reputation as the best battlefield commander of the war, perhaps tied with Hoffmeister for that distinction.

But there is reason to think all those senior Canadian formations on the battlefield were as much a drain as they were a help, particularly that corps in Italy. A smarter move would have been to simply leave the two divisions under British command and use the net savings of thousands of troops to reinforce infantry units in the field, preventing the costly and divisive conscription issue from coming up. Politically, that was perhaps not possible.

Canada's biggest contributions were away from the battlefield, though these were uneven. Tank production outstripped that of other Commonwealth nations like Australia, NZ, South Africa, but produced very little in the way of usable AFVs. We sent some Matildas and Valentines to the Russians (who may have thought WTF?) and in the end produced a number of Rams that became useful as Kangaroo APCs in both 1st Cdn Army and 2nd British Army.

The merchant navy and efforts on the North Atlantic Run may have been far more important to the war, as well as the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan, though the merits of the actual CBO will be debated till Kingdom Come.

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Re: Canada's Role in WWII

#17

Post by Empiricist » 19 Sep 2021, 09:27

henryk wrote:
24 May 2014, 20:15
Canada, Netherlands and Poland freed the Netherlands.
You forgot the USA.


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Re: Canada's Role in WWII

#18

Post by Richard Sands » 19 Sep 2021, 10:30

Empiricist wrote:
19 Sep 2021, 09:27
henryk wrote:
24 May 2014, 20:15
Canada, Netherlands and Poland freed the Netherlands.
You forgot the USA.
Not to mention the British also.!!!

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Re: Canada's Role in WWII

#19

Post by henryk » 19 Sep 2021, 20:54

Empiricist wrote:
19 Sep 2021, 09:27
henryk wrote:
24 May 2014, 20:15
Canada, Netherlands and Poland freed the Netherlands.
You forgot the USA.
OK. Please give a source.

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Re: Canada's Role in WWII

#20

Post by henryk » 19 Sep 2021, 20:55

Richard Sands wrote:
19 Sep 2021, 10:30
Empiricist wrote:
19 Sep 2021, 09:27
henryk wrote:
24 May 2014, 20:15
Canada, Netherlands and Poland freed the Netherlands.
You forgot the USA.
Not to mention the British also.!!!
OK. Please give a source.

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Re: Canada's Role in WWII

#21

Post by Empiricist » 19 Sep 2021, 21:42

henryk wrote:
19 Sep 2021, 20:54
Empiricist wrote:
19 Sep 2021, 09:27
henryk wrote:
24 May 2014, 20:15
Canada, Netherlands and Poland freed the Netherlands.
You forgot the USA.
OK. Please give a source.
Szanowny Panie Henryku... litości :-)

Source? "Canada, Netherlands and Poland" liberated The Netherlands, as you wrote? Really? The Poles with their only one armoured division in the Netherlands? Have you ever heard about inter-Allied Operation Market-Garden in The Netherlands? Did the US Army withdraw its 82nd and 101st Abn Divisions from The Netherlands after that Operation? Have you ever heard about the US 7th Armoured Division operations in The Netherlands? The same goes for the US 104th Infantry Division in The Netherlands. "Sources" are in a second even in the Internet.

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Re: Canada's Role in WWII

#22

Post by Michael Dorosh » 20 Sep 2021, 04:00

US 104th Division fought in Netherlands as noted above, along with too many British units to name. The Walcheren Island operation comes to mind as does the liberation of Arnhem in 1945, for just two.

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Re: Canada's Role in WWII

#23

Post by Empiricist » 20 Sep 2021, 10:01

henryk wrote:
19 Sep 2021, 20:54
Empiricist wrote:
19 Sep 2021, 09:27
henryk wrote:
24 May 2014, 20:15
Canada, Netherlands and Poland freed the Netherlands.
You forgot the USA.
OK. Please give a source.
US 82nd Airborne Division

NETHERLANDS MILITARY ORDER OF WILLIAM (Decree of the Knight of the Fourth Class), awarded under Royal Decree No. 30, 8 October 1945, by Wilhelmenia, Queen of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, with the following citation:
Considering that the 82d Airborne Division of the United States Army, during the airborne operations and the ensuing fighting actions in the central part of the Netherlands in the period from 17 September to 4 October 1944, excelled in performing the tasks allotted to it, with tact, coupled with superior gallantry, self-sacrifice and loyalty; considering also, that the actions of the aforesaid division took place in the area of Nijmegen; have approved and ordered. 1. To decree that the divisional colors of the 82d Airborne Division of the United States Army shall be decorated with the Military Order of William, degree of the knight of the fourth class; 2. To authorize the division to carry in its divisional colors, the name of the town of NIJMEGEN 1944.

NETHERLANDS ORANGE LANYARD, awarded under Ministerial Decree No. X 25, 8 October 1945, by the Netherlands Minister of War, with the following citation:
Considering that the outstanding performance of duty of the 82d Airborne Division, United States Army, during the airborne operations and the ensuing fighting actions in the central part of the Netherlands in the period from 17 September to 4 October 1944, has induced HER MAJESTY, THE QUEEN, to decorate its divisional colors with the Military Order of William, degree of the knight of the fourth class; considering also, that it is desirable for each member of the personnel of the 82d Airborne Division, United States Army, who took part in the aforesaid operations, to possess a lasting memento of this glorious struggle; decrees: that each member of the personnel of the 82d Airborne Division, United States Army, who took part in the operations in the area of Nijmegen in the period from 17 September to 4 October 1944 is allowed to wear the Orange Lanyard of the Royal Netherlands Army.

US 101st Airborne Division

NETHERLANDS ORANGE LANYARD, awarded under Ministerial Decree No. P 203, 20 September 1945, by the Netherlands Minister of War, with the following citation:
Considering that the outstanding performance of duty of the 101st Airborne Division, United States Army, during the airborne operations and the ensuing fighting actions in the southern part of the Netherlands in the period from 17 September to 28 November 1944, has greatly contributed to the liberation of that part of the country; considering also, that it is desirable for each member of the division, who took part in the aforesaid operations, to possess a lasting memento of this glorious struggle; decrees: That each member of the personnel of the 101st Airborne Division, United States Army, who took part in the operations in the southern part of the Netherlands in the period from 17 September to 28 November 1944, is authorized to wear the Orange Lanyard of the Royal Netherlands Army.

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Re: Canada's Role in WWII

#24

Post by Richard Sands » 20 Sep 2021, 10:05

British 51st Highland Division during operation 'Colin' and Pheasant to name just 2. Have a look at my Fathers time in Holland in 1944. starting here; http://www.keep-em-moving.co.uk/page9new.html

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Re: Canada's Role in WWII

#25

Post by Empiricist » 20 Sep 2021, 11:50

Canadaservedwithdistinction wrote:
24 May 2014, 06:50
Canada freed the Netherlands.
No, Canada did not free The Netherlands.

Talking "Canada freed The Netherlands" is the same grotesque nationalistic propaganda which I may observe for half a century in the other ex-Allied country -- "Poland liberated Belgium" or (like in this thread) "Poland liberated The Netherlands". It's ridiculous.

Liberation of The Netherlands was a teamwork of the Allied armed forces of Canada, Great Britain, USA and Poland and to some extent -- on a microscopic scale -- the Dutch resistance.

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Re: Canada's Role in WWII

#26

Post by Michael Dorosh » 20 Sep 2021, 17:16

henryk wrote:
19 Sep 2021, 20:55
OK. Please give a source.
It would be very easy for you educate yourself on this score given the online existence of things like the US Army green books, the Canadian Army official history (which gives due credit to the Allied formations under command of 1st Canadian Army), etc., and scores of other reputable references.

Asking to be spoonfed on the internet on a question this broad and - frankly - this basic - is a bit off-putting. It's not hard information to find, and really for anyone with an interest in military history of the period, falls under "common knowledge."

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Re: Canada's Role in WWII

#27

Post by Rob Stuart » 20 Sep 2021, 19:30

Empiricist wrote:
20 Sep 2021, 11:50
Liberation of The Netherlands was a teamwork of the Allied armed forces of Canada, Great Britain, USA and Poland and to some extent -- on a microscopic scale -- the Dutch resistance.
I agree, but I think it might be fair to say that after Market-Garden the Canadians liberated more of the remaining unliberated Dutch territory than any other single Allied country. This was simply a function of the 1st Canadian Army forming the Allied left flank and the comparatively small size of the Netherlands. I confess, however, that in saying this I am simply relying on my recollection of books I read some time ago.

The attached image shows Canadian general Charles Foulkes accepting the surrender of the remaining German forces in the Netherlands on 5 May 1945.
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holland.jpg
holland.jpg (31.82 KiB) Viewed 1063 times

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Re: Canada's Role in WWII

#28

Post by Empiricist » 20 Sep 2021, 20:46

Generally speaking -- when it comes to ETO up to this time there is unnecessary rivalry between former Allies "who did what", "who did more", "who did something better" to liberate this city, that city, this country, that country etc. The fans of history are victims of this phenomenon. An objective history does not exist.

The problem is in fact that nobody wrote an objective history of liberation of The Netherlands. There are tens, if not hundreds, of various publications on WWII fights in The Netherlands but all of them were written from national perspective.

When we read -- for instance -- "The Price of Command" Canadian book there is an impression that the 1st Canadian Army only fought in The Netherlands "with a little help" of the Polish 1st Armoured Division. In the Index of Military Formations of this book the US 82nd, 101st, 7th and 104th Divisions do not exist. When we read the Polish books dedicated to the Polish 1st Armoured Division there is an impression that The Netherlands was liberated by the Poles "with a little help" of the Canadians. The British and US divisions do not exist in such books. The fans of history are consumers of various creations but not history.

Etc., etc., etc.

The history of The Netherlands liberation during WWII should be written by a historian with free mind, free of national emotions and national propaganda; by a historian from Iceland maybe, Spain, Portugal or other far country from other continent, but by nobody from four ex-Allied countries fighting in The Netherlands during WWII.

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Re: Canada's Role in WWII

#29

Post by henryk » 20 Sep 2021, 21:17

Thank you for the information.

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Re: Canada's Role in WWII

#30

Post by Michael Dorosh » 20 Sep 2021, 21:49

Empiricist wrote:
20 Sep 2021, 20:46
Generally speaking -- when it comes to ETO up to this time there is unnecessary rivalry between former Allies "who did what", "who did more", "who did something better" to liberate this city, that city, this country, that country etc. The fans of history are victims of this phenomenon. An objective history does not exist.

The problem is in fact that nobody wrote an objective history of liberation of The Netherlands. There are tens, if not hundreds, of various publications on WWII fights in The Netherlands but all of them were written from national perspective.

When we read -- for instance -- "The Price of Command" Canadian book there is an impression that the 1st Canadian Army only fought in The Netherlands "with a little help" of the Polish 1st Armoured Division. In the Index of Military Formations of this book the US 82nd, 101st, 7th and 104th Divisions do not exist. When we read the Polish books dedicated to the Polish 1st Armoured Division there is an impression that The Netherlands was liberated by the Poles "with a little help" of the Canadians. The British and US divisions do not exist in such books. The fans of history are consumers of various creations but not history.

Etc., etc., etc.

The history of The Netherlands liberation during WWII should be written by a historian with free mind, free of national emotions and national propaganda; by a historian from Iceland maybe, Spain, Portugal or other far country from other continent, but by nobody from four ex-Allied countries fighting in The Netherlands during WWII.
Your premise is correct, and well stated, but your conclusion is flawed. If a historian is worth his salt, he will put aside his biases.

For obvious reasons, that is not always possible - especially if you are looking at "official" histories, which are by definition national in character. Those authors had specific mandates. And the community is probably victim to their success since the 'official' national historians like C.P. Stacey, Ellis and Blumenson (often writing from an Army only perspective to boot) did such a creditable job that others probably thought there was little they felt they had to add.

Popular historians then come forward and instead of doing what you said - reframe the battle outside the perspective of single nationalities - seek to expand on what the official historians got wrong or may not have known or been allowed to talk about (ENIGMA comes to mind). They seem to have little interest in doing what you are talking about, but there have been some good exceptions. Denis and Shelagh Whitaker for example seem to have been able to provide broader coverage of well-trod topics by including interviews with British, Dutch, American, German veterans, etc.. But if your mandate is to cover the military history of the event your focus is always going to be rather limited.

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