Why didn't the Uk have a proper APC in WW2?

Discussions on all aspects of the The United Kingdom & its Empire and Commonwealth during the Inter-War era and Second World War. Hosted by Andy H
User avatar
sitalkes
Member
Posts: 471
Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 01:23

Why didn't the Uk have a proper APC in WW2?

#1

Post by sitalkes » 26 May 2014, 05:49

Was it thought more useful to have a few light weapons carriers than one big one that could carry a section/squad? Was it a lack of industrial planning (e.g. the shortage of large trucks in the UK due to govt policy)? Or was it just a matter of doctrine? So in 1944 the British start using the Kangaroo, which was a Canadian invention (but an improvisation), and the M3 Half-track, which was American and possibly not as good as a fully tracked or wheeled vehicle like the Dragon, which preceded the Bren Carrier?

Spontoon
Member
Posts: 102
Joined: 27 Jul 2006, 06:12
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Why didn't the Uk have a proper APC in WW2?

#2

Post by Spontoon » 27 May 2014, 02:13

I would say that it was a matter of doctrine. Also, economy! Infantry were supposed to travel in trucks to a start line then dismount and proceed into battle on foot. The LMG team would advance in the Bren Gun Carrier. There was also a version of the Bren Carrier call the Cavalry Carrier that carried a driver, bren gunner, and seated six infantry in longitudinal seats on eithr side of the hull, but not covered by armour.

The Dragons, Light or Medium; were artillery tractors and not really made for carrying infantry. The Light Dragon Mk.III ws the ancestor of the Bren Carrier and ultimately the Universal Carrier, which combined the functions of the Bren Carrier and the Cavalry Carrier.


User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Why didn't the Uk have a proper APC in WW2?

#3

Post by phylo_roadking » 27 May 2014, 02:52

Also - the majority of trucks/lorries used pre-war by the British Army had a limited offroad ability anyway, with 4x4 drive....

...and like most European countries the British had experimented through the 1920s with various configurations of halftrack truck and conversion kits to change trucks in service to halftrack or tracked configuration. But in the end the British Army shied away from the halftrack concept as various competitions between types showed to the War Office's "period" mind that none of what was available at the time was up to the job.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

User avatar
sitalkes
Member
Posts: 471
Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 01:23

Re: Why didn't the Uk have a proper APC in WW2?

#4

Post by sitalkes » 27 May 2014, 03:24

Didn't know about them, but only 50 Cavalry Carriers were built, and delivered before the war. The Kangaroo is credited with saving many lives at a time when manpower was at a premium in both the British and Canadian armies. Seems other lives could have been saved if it had been introduced earlier. I mentioned the Dragon as it looks bigger than a Bren Carrier and a suitable size for an APC.

pugsville
Member
Posts: 1016
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 05:40

Re: Why didn't the Uk have a proper APC in WW2?

#5

Post by pugsville » 27 May 2014, 06:42

because APC weren't sexy enough to get up the order of priorities, in the early mid war they were so many things that needed doing from the british point of view, that details like APC were overlooked and later they could use US half tracks. It wasn't till 1942 that the British were out of the "emergency" period of planning stuff, and with only the western desert a relative side show, the Battle of Britain and the Battle of Atlantic having bigger calls on making stuff.

User avatar
Saxon Cross
Member
Posts: 158
Joined: 05 Apr 2010, 15:33
Location: UK/USA

Re: Why didn't the Uk have a proper APC in WW2?

#6

Post by Saxon Cross » 27 May 2014, 20:52

Don't forget that the UK was the most motorised army in the war, until the US joined in 1943.

The German and Soviet armies, for example, were mostly horse-drawn, and the number of horses they employed increased as the war went on.


Saxon

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Why didn't the Uk have a proper APC in WW2?

#7

Post by phylo_roadking » 27 May 2014, 21:03

Don't forget that the UK was the most motorised army in the war, until the US joined in 1943.
Indeed; we just did it differently, by dint of a separate transport arm, the RASC, rather than "organic" MT for every unit. All each unit had in the way of dedicated MT was to lift unit stores, kit etc..

Okay....not all at once, of course :P The BEF for example is always described as "fully motorised" when in fact it would take three RASC lifts to transport all divisions :lol:
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

User avatar
Inselaffe
Member
Posts: 643
Joined: 29 Jul 2008, 00:46
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Why didn't the Uk have a proper APC in WW2?

#8

Post by Inselaffe » 28 May 2014, 12:08

Indeed; we just did it differently, by dint of a separate transport arm, the RASC, rather than "organic" MT for every unit. All each unit had in the way of dedicated MT was to lift unit stores, kit etc..
True though with the notable exception of the motor battalions attached to armoured divisions or brigades. They really were fully motorised from before the outbreak of war with their own organic MT; also the first British infantry Bns to get US half-tracks, they begin arriving in late 43-early 44. An often overlooked group of British battalions :(


Cheers
"It was like Hungary being between Germany and the Soviet Union. What sort of choice was that? Which language would you like your firing squad to speak?" Tibor Fischer 'Under the Frog'.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Why didn't the Uk have a proper APC in WW2?

#9

Post by Sid Guttridge » 28 May 2014, 13:51

Hi Phylo,

Interesting proposition.

It deserves its own thread, "How motorized was the BEF in 1940?"

Cheers,

Sid

User avatar
John Hilly
Member
Posts: 2618
Joined: 26 Jan 2010, 10:33
Location: Tampere, Finland, EU

Re: Why didn't the Uk have a proper APC in WW2?

#10

Post by John Hilly » 28 May 2014, 17:25

IMO only some visionary officers in all armies including British and Germans could predict the progress of armored battles correctly before the WW2. And those few couldn't convince funding decision makers that all the money that shoud have been put building them was worth it.
Clobal miscalculation in hindsight, but reasonable considering the era and current SOP's.

With best,
Johnny B. Goode :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

Gary Kennedy
Member
Posts: 1001
Joined: 28 Mar 2012, 19:56

Re: Why didn't the Uk have a proper APC in WW2?

#11

Post by Gary Kennedy » 28 May 2014, 21:39

One thing to remember about the use of the SdKfz 251 and the M3 halftracks is that they were largely restricted to particular units, namely mechanised infantry operating as part of Armd Divs. While the US and German armies may have had such vehicles available in decent numbers from 1942 onwards, they were not put to use transporting standard infantry across terrain covered by enemy MGs, mortars and artillery, they still had to advance on foot; same as the British. The British ended up, courtesy of the Bren/Universal carrier, with the ability for any Inf Bn to move a portion of itself under armour, but only a small portion of course. The introduction of the defrocked Priests and later Ram conversions as armoured carriers was important in that it allowed any Inf Bn to be mounted and transported under some degree of protection, it didn't have to be specialised units working with an Armd formation (such as a Motor Bn). Two APC Regts still meant it was limited in scale, but it gave the 'main effort' the chance it needed.

Did the US ever pool halftracks for carrying standard infantry units for particular assaults? I'm pretty sure the Germans never did so for their standard infantry.

Gary

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Why didn't the Uk have a proper APC in WW2?

#12

Post by phylo_roadking » 28 May 2014, 21:54

The introduction of the defrocked Priests and later Ram conversions as armoured carriers was important in that it allowed any Inf Bn to be mounted and transported under some degree of protection, it didn't have to be specialised units working with an Armd formation (such as a Motor Bn). Two APC Regts still meant it was limited in scale, but it gave the 'main effort' the chance it needed.
....and of course they required the same levels of pampering/regular manual-specified maintenance as any other tracked armoured fighting vehicle - so they didn't tend to be used for "everyday" transport...but be borrowed/allocated for specific efforts/ assaults etc.. Close to the "battlefield taxi" concept - but let down because of no top cover, so emphasis on "some" degree of cover...! 8O
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

User avatar
EKB
Member
Posts: 712
Joined: 20 Jul 2005, 18:21
Location: United States

Re: Why didn't the Uk have a proper APC in WW2?

#13

Post by EKB » 28 May 2014, 22:38

Gary Kennedy wrote: Did the US ever pool halftracks for carrying standard infantry units for particular assaults?
There wasn't much opportunity with such a limited number of half-tracked vehicles, with a limited load capacity. The infantry more often rode tanks and self-propelled Tank Destroyers.

The Tank Destroyer and Anti-Aircraft battalions with towed guns used half-tracks as prime-movers, so it is possible that some additional troops could pile-on in a pinch. GHQ may have controlled some of the AA battalions with half-tracks mounting a quad .50 caliber gun turret, but they didn't have much extra space for troop carrying.

Gary Kennedy
Member
Posts: 1001
Joined: 28 Mar 2012, 19:56

Re: Why didn't the Uk have a proper APC in WW2?

#14

Post by Gary Kennedy » 29 May 2014, 00:22

It was just a niggling thought as to whether there was a one-off thing where the US found some halftrack transportation for the 'leg' infantry, but I'm probably imagining it. As you say, halftracks were unit transport, so not easily prised away. The only APC with top cover I can think of was the Canadian C15TA, but that was wheeled rather than tracked, though of course so were a few of the post-war APCs before the 'box on tracks' appeared.

Gary

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Why didn't the Uk have a proper APC in WW2?

#15

Post by phylo_roadking » 29 May 2014, 00:44

The only APC with top cover I can think of was the Canadian C15TA
....which, to be fair, was originally meant to be an armoured load carrier along the lines of the Dodge Weapons Carrier...and was rapidly extemporised as an APC ;) In reality it was nothing more than an armoured truck originally supposed to fill the same niche as the 15CWT truck, but derived from the Otter...because, to be equally fair, the Otter wasn't much cop as an armoured recce car :P It got used...but wasn't popular, it had a lot of "user issues" :lol: The C15TA was far more useful.
but that was wheeled rather than tracked, though of course so were a few of the post-war APCs before the 'box on tracks' appeared.
...but which never totally replaced the wheeled APC in British Army use, with Saracens and Humber Pigs in service right up through to the late 1980s for various purposes. They never abandoned the idea either...given that the Saracens and Humbers were quite old by then...with the Saxon coming into service new with BAOR as late as 1983! 8O

(Hey, that's the British Army....years late catching on to a good idea, years late letting go of it again! :lol: There was an MoD audit in the early 1980s that turned up a couple of warehouses stacked with WWI trench duckboard and disposable mule shoes! :P )
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

Post Reply

Return to “The United Kingdom & its Empire and Commonwealth 1919-45”