Definition of a "crock"

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Don Juan
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Definition of a "crock"

#1

Post by Don Juan » 13 Jul 2014, 22:20

Does anyone know if there was precise meaning behind a tank being described as a "crock"?

e.g. did it refer to any immobilised tank, or was it strictly used to refer to a mechanical breakdown, as opposed to a battle casualty, or a tank that had run out of fuel etc.?

Also, does anyone know what "Y" and "Z" classifications mean when applied to damaged tanks in the Middle East?
"The demonstration, as a demonstration, was a failure. The sunshield would not fit the tank. Altogether it was rather typically Middle Easty."
- 7th Armoured Brigade War Diary, 30th August 1941

Michael Kenny
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Re: Definition of a "crock"

#2

Post by Michael Kenny » 14 Jul 2014, 00:08

An Attempt was made to discriminate between destroyed and damaged tanks within the following definitions: --

1. destroyed tanks consisted of ‘Y’ and ‘Z’ casualties*, those which were not recoverable, and those recorded as losses but without further detail;

2. damaged tanks were those which suffered minor damage, such as a track off, and which were not in use for the remainder of the action,

Tanks which were damaged, but which were returned fit on the same day have not been counted as losses.

*Definition:

Y Casualty = requires assistance from repair personnel and likely to be repairable by unit fitters and light aid detachments or second line workshops.

Z Casualty = requires extensive repair or replacement involving evacuation.



http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.ph ... opic=22887


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Don Juan
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Re: Definition of a "crock"

#3

Post by Don Juan » 14 Jul 2014, 11:35

Thanks Mike.

So would a "crock" be a damaged tank not in use for the remainder of the action, i.e. your number 2?
"The demonstration, as a demonstration, was a failure. The sunshield would not fit the tank. Altogether it was rather typically Middle Easty."
- 7th Armoured Brigade War Diary, 30th August 1941

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LWD
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Re: Definition of a "crock"

#4

Post by LWD » 14 Jul 2014, 13:48

Do you have a quote that puts the term in context? Are you sure it has an official defintion?

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Urmel
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Re: Definition of a "crock"

#5

Post by Urmel » 14 Jul 2014, 14:51

Crocks are damaged tanks, non-runners. Could be battle damage or mechanical, as far as I understand. Not an official term, but often used in war diaries.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Don Juan
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Re: Definition of a "crock"

#6

Post by Don Juan » 14 Jul 2014, 16:18

OK, if "crock" can be used for battle-damaged tanks then that's useful to know. I was looking at 6 RTR's war diary for Battleaxe after they were ambushed at Hafid Ridge, and the word "crock" started appearing. I was unsure if they were undergoing severe mechanical problems as well as being shot to pieces.
"The demonstration, as a demonstration, was a failure. The sunshield would not fit the tank. Altogether it was rather typically Middle Easty."
- 7th Armoured Brigade War Diary, 30th August 1941

Clive Mortimore
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Re: Definition of a "crock"

#7

Post by Clive Mortimore » 14 Jul 2014, 19:44

What's a "crock" to the regiment might not be to the LAD, what's a "crock" to the LAD might not be to the Brigade Workshop, what's a "crock to the Brigade Workshop.......and so it goes on until the vehicle is placed in the "crock park" to be robbed of useful parts.

A "crock" is an unwell vehicle or other bit of equipment until it is repaired or scrapped. Even in the seventies when I was in REME the term was very wide spread as some Sergeant Majors used it for the "sick, lame and lazy". Maybe that is where it came from, our Aussie cousins’ use the term for someone who is poorly.
Clive

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Don Juan
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Re: Definition of a "crock"

#8

Post by Don Juan » 15 Jul 2014, 12:53

Thanks for the info Clive.
"The demonstration, as a demonstration, was a failure. The sunshield would not fit the tank. Altogether it was rather typically Middle Easty."
- 7th Armoured Brigade War Diary, 30th August 1941

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Saxon Cross
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Re: Definition of a "crock"

#9

Post by Saxon Cross » 20 Jul 2014, 22:32

I thought the origins of the word was 'crockery', and the context was that before indoor toilets, everyone had a bed pot - made of crockery - in case you had to 'go' in the night.

Therefore, similar to how the word 'crap' came from 'Crapper' stamped on loads of toilets made by Thomas Crapper & Co. the phrase 'crock of sh*t' or just 'crock' had it's roots in toilet humour.

I think...

Saxon

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Andy H
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Re: Definition of a "crock"

#10

Post by Andy H » 20 Jul 2014, 22:55

Hi

I've always understood the word to mean that the vehicle isn't working, be that because of enemy action or mechanical failure. Never seen the term used 'officially'.

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Andy H

Michael Kenny
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Re: Definition of a "crock"

#11

Post by Michael Kenny » 20 Jul 2014, 23:57

'crock' in Urdu refers to 'soot' or 'staining' and/or badly made pottery. Another cross-over word like pyjamas, cushy and shufti?

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Re: Definition of a "crock"

#12

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 21 Jul 2014, 07:15

Urmel wrote:Crocks are damaged tanks, non-runners. Could be battle damage or mechanical, as far as I understand. Not an official term, but often used in war diaries.

Damaged tanks but still runners surely ? If they are non-runners then why is the London To Brighton Veteran/Vintage Cars Race known as "The Old Crocks Race" ? They are all "runners" jut not very good runners.
Alan

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Urmel
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Re: Definition of a "crock"

#13

Post by Urmel » 21 Jul 2014, 11:43

Good point, but I think to be more precise than in/correct my prior statement, it could also be non-runners being towed.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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