Do you really have difficulty understanding my statements? I'll repeat them for you:phylo_roadking wrote:You....forgotten already?
"Neither the Mustang nor the T16 were "British-designed". The idea they were British "paid-to-be-designed" is closer."
Are you babbling on about an immaculate design conception now? How do you think engineering "changes" occur anyway?Only the changes were U.S.-developed (possibly at British request - see below); it's the same situation as the "CMP" Canadian versions of Ford/GM/Chevy trucks for British and Canadian service - noone calls them Canadian designs, they're American designs that were altered by the Canadians. I.E. it doesn't change the origin of the original design beneath the changes.
Oh, I see, so it was a Ford marketing decision that made the Model T a Model A?Ford chose to market them as "completely different machines", the T16 is regarded in UK classic military vehicle circles as just another variant/sub-type of the Universal Carrier....
This is the "order": the 13,893 Universal Carriers produced at Somerville were the T-16 and the T16E2, with production starting in March 1943. The Mark I Universal Carriers were produced in Canada, by Windsor Ford, but U.S. financed. U.S. production financing began in August 1941 and continued to May 1943. A total of 5,714 were built [Edit: in double-checking I find that this is entered in one place as 5,714 and another as 5,718, which makes the final total either 33,988 or 33,992. The discrepancy appears to be with the first four pilots built, which get subsumed into the Canadian total.]. In addition, Canadian financing paid for another 23,278 built in Canada between April 1941 and February 1945 when the last one (literally) was completed. The "Windsor" production in Canada began in December 1943 and continued to April 1945 with 5,000 built.The order (sic) of this would bear further checking; Nigel Waston's series of articles says that "With Britain and Canada unable to meet the demand for MkI and MkII Carriers, production started at Ford's plant at Somerville, Mass., and it was during this time that the company began designing and testing their own version."
Since the T-16 and T-16E32 were produced in Somerville and incorporated design changes found in the production, the "designing and testing their own version" had to precede the production. QED.
No, it did not, the Canadian Universal Carrier Mark I (both Canadian and U.S. funded), the T-16/T-16E2, and the Windsor are all distinct separate production runs totaling 33,992 vehicles [Edit: or 33,988]....and that it appears that the original British order was subsumed into and became part of the 21,000-item order that the Ordnance Board gave to Ford for the U.S. Army.
Oh goody, perhaps you will reveal the issues numbers of CMV?As a P.S....
No, of course not...Does either source happen to mention that the British had already made exactly the same modifications in 1940-41 to produce the Loyd Carrier variant - 25,000 of which were built by Arnfield, Aveling-Barford, Dennis, Ford, Harland Engineering, Sentinel Wagon, MB Wild, Wolseley and Vivian Loyd & Co.?
Anyway, I see, so then the T-16 and T-16E2 now are just copies of the Loyd Carrier? Interesting. I thought you said they were just Bren Carrier copies, no, sorry, Windsor Carrier copies, no, sorry, Canadian Carrier Mark I copies, no...
The "lengthening" to prevent "rearing" was done in the Windsor as well, along with adding an extra bogie for better weight distribution also to solve same...beginning production in December 1943. T-16E2 production began after May 1945 eh? So 80 were produced? How interesting, given that between 280 and 300 (sources vary) went to Argentina...Do they likewise happen to mention that the T16E2 variant was developed in Britain?
There had been an attempt in the U.S. to re-design the T16 further beginning in May 1945 to stop its habit of "rearing up" when climbing or towing, but it hadn't worked. Ford Dagenham - in Essex, UK - had actually taken on "parentage" of the T16, and were assembling the majority of them from kits and testing them before issue...and they converted the T16 MkI to prevent rearing AND stretch its capacity. The list of changes that resulted in the T16E2 were indeed the hull lengthened by 6 7/8ins by moving the front bogie back 6ins and the drive sprocket back by 9ins, the rear bogie reversed, and modifications to the pintle and skid plate...and dish-style wheels that kicked up less debris onto and into the tracks - although there are also pics of T16 MkIs assembled at Dagenham with the dished wheels, so that may have been an earlier Dagenham modification than the E2. This all increased its payload by 3cwt, better all-round handling, and no sign of "rear-up".
CMV issue numbers?P.P.S...
Which obviously means they are all one and the same.Just for information - Vickers' original MkI/II "Light Dragon" carriers of 1930-32 had two two wheeled bogies per side and two-tiller controlled diff steering; the MkIII Light Dragon went to the more familiar bogie layout and wheel/trackwarping steering and fed directly into Vickers' development of the "next" generation of carrier in 1934 - and these trackrun and steering changes were regarded to the end of the subsequent carrier design life at the end of the war as an improvement over the two two-wheeled bogies and "conventional" steering. Bren/Scout/Cavalry Carriers and the Universal Carrier were ideally intended for combat...and required the sharper turning circle provided by track warping and wheel steering...while the Loyd and T16 carriers were intended for loadcarrying and towing.
What do you know the prolix chap finally eructed some useful information...On checking, it's actually five parts - February-June 2013
Thanks, I'll look them up.