British improvised armour

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Maxschnauzer
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Re: British improvised armour

#31

Post by Maxschnauzer » 15 Aug 2014, 11:05

Why not another railcar in the desert while we're at it?:
Source: http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.ph ... sed+armour
hmvf79.jpg
British soldiers on a Machine-gun coach at the rear of passenger train between Jaffa & Jerusalem - circa 1936
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phylo_roadking
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Re: British improvised armour

#32

Post by phylo_roadking » 16 Aug 2014, 23:11

Gooner1 wrote:I wonder if that screen was to keep out the sun or grenades.
Grenades. Armoured "personnel carrier" lorries used in Ireland 1918-21 by the Army and RIC had similar protection against grenades, real or improvised. Even that early they realised that the last thing you wanted was a fragmentation weapon exploding inside an armoured box... 8O
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Re: British improvised armour

#33

Post by Knouterer » 22 Jan 2015, 10:20

On the subject of the lorry-mounted guns in 1940, I have been wondering where the mysterious battery designations (such as C.7) came from, but this document explains it.
As noted above, from August/Sept. the Navy/RM personnel was withdrawn and the guns were gradually handed over to the Royal Artillery (anti-tank or field batteries).
In the invasion zone, the 69th A/Tk Regiment (45 div.) had in Sept. one battery (273) equipped with 8 x 4in guns on lorries, while the three other batteries were equipped with a mixture of 6pdrs, 2pdrs and 75 mm guns, until the end of the month when they were equipped with 8 x 2pdrs each (instead of 12 as per establishment).
The 115th Field Regiment (Ashford area), which had lost its guns in France, had a whole collection of lorry-mounted 4in guns, 12pdrs and 3pdrs at the end of Sept., according to the monthly returns of the strength of the British Army (WO 73/146).
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phylo_roadking
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Re: British improvised armour

#34

Post by phylo_roadking » 22 Jan 2015, 19:56

Interesting; once again, a severe restriction on the number of training shots allowed.
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Re: British improvised armour

#35

Post by Knouterer » 28 Aug 2017, 17:52

sitalkes wrote:The Tubby Tank Buster - from page 10 of "Vehicles of the Home Guard"
Home Guard Tubby Tank Buster.png
Tubby Tank Buster top.jpg
"As well as using the Fordson Major as a basis for their designs, they also developed armoured bodies for a number of Dodge vehicles.it was Campbell who developed the Dodges...
Malcolm Campbell had the top part of the armoured shell cut off. Inside was then mounted a complete short six-pounder, including
pedestal stand and shield. This gun and mounting would have originally been fitted to a First World War Male Tank ... Now strictly a self-propelled gun as opposed to an armoured car, this vehicle was christened 'Tubby the Tank Buster'. It was operated by the Somerford section of the Christchurch (then Hampshire but now Dorset) Home Guard."
An article about the armament of the Home Guard in the German magazine Deutsches Waffenjournal (DWJ) of April 2017 mentions Tubby. The vehicle and gun were (allegedly) acquired by the Hampshire HG in 1942, but the combination was not entirely satisfactory; when the gun was fired to the side, at a right angle to the axis of the vehicle, the recoil would topple Tubby. Sadly, no source is given.
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sitalkes
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Re: British improvised armour

#36

Post by sitalkes » 29 Aug 2017, 04:34

Numbers of Improvised and Ad-Hoc Armoured Vehicles produced (RAF= mainly used by RAF)
Type Name Production
Light Reconnaissance Car Humberette over 3,600 of all models, 1,200 in 1940
Light Reconnaissance Car Beaverette (RAF) 2,800 (out of 5,000 planned for 1940)
Light Reconnaissance Car Morris Light Reconnaissance Car 100 delivered by 1939, 32- 52 available after Dunkirk
Light Armoured Car Morris CS9 2,200, with production starting in 1940 or 1942 (there seems to be some disagreement about that date and I will have to clear it up)
Light armoured car Malcolm Campbell or Dodge armoured car 70, including 9 used by the 45th division for defence of the invasion beaches
Armoured Car Guy (“Wheeled Tank) Armoured car 101 starting in 1939, although only 34 were available to Home Forces after Dunkirk
Mobile pill-box Bison (RAF) 2-300 starting in 1940
armoured lorry Armadillo (RAF) 877 or 940, starting in June 1940
armoured lorry Anti-Tank Lorry 948, in 1940-41. They equipped Reconnaissance Regiments and other army units short of mobile anti-tank weapons
heavy armoured lorry Beaver Eel (RAF) 336, starting in 1940
heavy Anti-tank lorry Susie 76 in June 1940, up to 4”/100mm gun
Flame Thrower lorry Cockatrice/Lagonda 66 mostly used by RAF
Home Guard armoured vehicles various Numbers unknown, pictures are available of more than 20, perhaps an average of one per two Home Guard battalions would seem to be a reasonable guess?
tankette The Dutchman 49 Vickers tanks not sold to the Dutch
Medium tank Vickers Medium Mark II A few revived from training establishments
Heavy Tank Mark IV Tank A few World War 1 tanks were brought back into running order
Weapons carrier Bren Gun Carriers 2-4,000 of various types (not improvised but destined to be used as an improvised tank)
Armoured Trains Named after letters of the alphabet 13, all built to the same design, except the RHDR toy train
Railway guns Peace maker, Scene Shifter, etc about 20, up to 12” calibre, WW 1 guns
Field gun 18 pdr 180 (WW1 guns)
Field gun 18/25 pdr 492 transitional model between 18 and 25 pounder
Field gun (and anti-tank gun) American WW1 75mm guns 1,065 (versions of the French 1895 gun)

Anti-tank gun 6 pdr (57mm) Hotchkiss about 600 (100 initially) – modified WW1 tank gun
Howitzer 4.5” Howitzer 280 (with only 320 rounds per gun available)

It may be seen that there were more than 10,000 of the improvised armoured vehicles, and more than 2,000 obsolete guns available to the Home Forces in 1940. They therefore vastly outnumbered the more conventional equipment available to the army at that time. This list does not include the small arms issued to the Home Guard in their thousands

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Kingfish
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Re: British improvised armour

#37

Post by Kingfish » 29 Aug 2017, 11:06

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Re: British improvised armour

#38

Post by Prosper Vandenbroucke » 29 Aug 2017, 11:30

In case of a german invasion of England :
The Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch Railway (RH&DR)
armoured_train.jpg
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http://talesanecdotesandtrivia.blogspot ... itler.html

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sitalkes
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Re: British improvised armour

#39

Post by sitalkes » 29 Aug 2017, 14:13

Kingfish wrote:Here are two from the lands of Rhohan and Mordor:
and Barnaby Joyce! http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-25/b ... ar/8842314

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sitalkes
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Re: British improvised armour

#40

Post by sitalkes » 29 Aug 2017, 14:23

Prosper Vandenbroucke wrote:In case of a german invasion of England :
The Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch Railway (RH&DR)
http://talesanecdotesandtrivia.blogspot ... itler.html
Thanks for that! The full story at last. The effect on the Germans of being attacked by a lightly armed toy train can only be imagined, but this train featured in British newsreels as an example of the British pluck and determination to resist the invader, so it made great propaganda.

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David W
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Re: British improvised armour

#41

Post by David W » 30 Aug 2017, 12:41

Don't underestimate the grit of model train enthusiasts. I feel sure that they would have delivered a "bloody nose" to any impudent Hun infantry who dared to set foot upon their green and pleasant sidings.

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Re: British improvised armour

#42

Post by Knouterer » 31 Aug 2017, 09:45

Last year I took a ride across Romney Marsh in Kent on the Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch Railway. It is called a "miniature" railway because at 15 in/381 mm its track is even narrower than "narrow gauge" railways which are between 600 and 1067 mm. The engines are faithful 1/3 scale copies of real steam engines; a few weeks before, one had been hit at a crossing by a tractor and knocked over on its side. Driver and four passengers sustained only minor injuries, I am relieved to report.

The model train enthousiast in 1940 was the Battalion Adjutant of the 6th Somerset Light Infantry, one captain Ellis, according to the unit’s War Diary (WO 166/4657):

“He proposes to run an armoured train consisting of three iron hopper waggons with two Lewis Guns and an Anti-Tk rifle mounted to provide mobile fire power. The train is to be drawn by one of the line’s engines, which is a Rolls Royce 12 Cylinder Motor mounted on bogies with a driver’s cab to be specially armoured by the R.E. The line is probably to be requisitioned throughout its length for the use of the whole Bde front.”

The line had by then been closed to civilian traffic. The Royal Engineers. began work on the train in a workshop in New Romney. It was soon found the diesel engine could not support the weight of the armour and it was replaced by a steam engine (2-4-1 Hercules).

Operation Instruction No. 6 of the 6th SLI of 10 sept.1940:
(…)
3. Defences in sector T will be reinforced by a mobile light armoured train operating between New Romney and Bridge 562510.
4. If a situation develops on the Right flank A Sub Area the train may be used to reinforce this flank under orders from 135 Inf. Bde.
5. This train will normally be based on New Romney station, but during the hours of darkness when a state of readiness is ordered it will move to Dymchurch station. This move will be completed nightly by 2000 hours.
6. Train crew will consist of: Train Commander; 2 Turret Gunners; 2 A.A. gunners; Engine Driver; and Spare Driver-Loader.
7. The train will carry reserve S.A.A., rations and water.
8. Tasks:
a) To reinforce by fire any of the forward areas.
b) To deny to the enemy approach along or crossing of line of Light Railway.
c) To patrol between the boundaries specified at dusk and dawn (Note: task c) will not at present be undertaken until the results of a trial have been considered.
9. Train Commander will arrange for the following stores to be on siding at Dymchurch station:
1 Ballast waggon, ready filled.
1 Small truck, coal reserve
Dump of rail, fishplates, spikes,
so that in the event of damage to the line by bombing repairs may be effected quickly.

10. During state of alarm the train will remain under cover in Dymchurch station with steam up by night. Train crew will rest until stand-to; spare personnel will find a sentry. At stand-to spare personnel will piquet approaches to station.
11. No other train services will run in the evening during period of alarm.
12. Intercommunication - Normally by civilian telephone – Littlestone 36 or Litlestone 50. During alarm by D.R., runner or cyclist to Dymchurch station.
13. Code name for train is under consideration.
14. Armoured train will make a trial patrol run from New Romney to Burmarsh Road and return to Dymchurch station on Tuesday September 10th and will be timed to pass Dymchurch Station on the outward run at 1940 hours. The up line only will be used for this purpose.”
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

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Re: British improvised armour

#43

Post by Knouterer » 31 Aug 2017, 10:13

It would seem that the armoured train did not last long on active service, judging by an entry in the War Diary of the 160th Railway Construction Company R.E. (WO 166/3647) for 13 January 1941 (by which time the SLI had left Romney Marsh):

"Major Suffolk & Captain Whitehouse to Littlestone to inspect Romney Hythe & Dymchurch Railway. Found railway in deplorable condition - 99% of engines out of repair, rolling stock in fair condition, buildings mostly looted - signals mostly out of repair - track in fair condition. Arrangements made to send two Sappers and 6 A.M.P.C. to maintain track. Inspection of railway made in company with Major Cantlie R.E. and Captain Beer (? ... handwriting) R.E."

"99%" is probably shorthand for "almost all", I don't think the RH&DR ever possessed more than a dozen engines.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

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Re: British improvised armour

#44

Post by Knouterer » 31 Aug 2017, 10:23

A few pictures I took at Hythe, New Romney and Dungeness. The older gentleman getting into the pit is about to turn the engine around all by himself. And an unpaid volunteer too, I'll wager :wink:
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069.JPG
074.JPG
081.JPG
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Knouterer
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Re: British improvised armour

#45

Post by Knouterer » 01 Sep 2017, 21:31

Just in case anybody wonders where the abovementioned bridge 562510 (military Cassini grid) was, it's here, between Hythe and Dymchurch, where the RH&DR crosses the cutting from the Royal Military Canal to the sea.
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Bridge 562510 001.jpg
Last edited by Knouterer on 02 Sep 2017, 08:47, edited 1 time in total.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

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