british armor in Italy 1944-45

[Lupo Solitario]

Hi all

I can't find a complete list of British/Commonwealth (included Polish) armored units operating in Northern Italy in Fall 1944-Spring 1945 campaigns and, overall, which tanks they were equipped with

Could any one help?

Thanks a lot

[aghart]

I don't have a list of units but British Tank Regiments in Italy were equipped with Sherman's and Churchill's.

[Gooner1]

https://web.archive.org/web/20121011231 ... ep1944.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20121011231 ... eb1945.htm

Hope that helps!

[Gary Kennedy]

If my old notes are right, and assuming you start autumn in October, for the British I'd reckon on the following Armoured formations and units;

2nd Armd Bde (part of 1st Armd Div till around Oct44) - 2nd Dragoon Guards (Queens Bays), 9th Queens Royal Lancers, and 10th Royal Hussars (Prince of Wales' Own).
26th Armd Bde (with 6th Armd Div) - 16th/5th Lancers, 17th/21st Lancers, 2nd Lothian and Border Horse, also 1st Derbyshire Yeomanry (6th Div's Armd Recce Regt)
7th Armd Bde (Indep) - 2nd, 6th and 8th Royal Tank Regiment
9th Armd Bde (Indep) - 3rd Kings Own Hussars (till end Dec44), 4th Queens Own Hussars, 7th Queens Own Hussars (both from late Oct44) - seemingly only two Armd Regts in the Bde in 1945.
21st Tank Bde - 12th and 48th Royal Tank Regiment, North Irish Horse (from Dec44), replaced 145 RAC
25th Tank Bde - 51st Royal Tank Regiment (till end 1944), 142 Royal Armoured Corps (till mid Dec44), North Irish Horse (till early Dec44)
25th Armd Assault Bde, RE (from 25th Tk Bde) - 51st Royal Tank Regiment, 'A' and 'B' Regts, RE, later renamed 1st and 2nd Armd Engr Regts

As noted above Sherman tanks for all the Armd Regts and Churchill infantry tanks for the Tank Bdes (no Cromwell tanks in Italy), with Stuart light tanks for the Recce Troops in both. 21st Tk Bde as I recall had to mix Shermans in with their Churchills due to shortages in late 1944(?).

For the Commonwealth formations I make it;

4th New Zealand Armd Bde (with 2NZEF) - 18th, 19th and 20th Armd Regts

11th South African Armd Bde (with 6th SA Armd Div) - Prince Albert's Guard, Pretoria Regt, Special Service Bn

Canada had 5th Armd Div and 1st Armd Bde (Indep) in Italy until they transferred to NWE in time for the drive into Germany in early 1945, but I haven't got a handy list of their Regts (full details will be online).

Bet I've still missed some...

Gary

[Kingfish]

Lets try this again...

IIRC, the Natal Mounted Rifles were the armored recon regt. of 6th SA Arm div

Also, weren't the Poles considered part of the Commonwealth for purposes of admin and Logistics?
They also had their own armored brigade

[Gary Kennedy]

Well I told you I was bound to have missed some!

Natal Mounted Rifles were indeed the Armd Recce Regt (never recon ;>) of 6th SA Armd Div, but they were converted to infantry by Feb45 (combining with the Div MG Bn and the Armd Bde's Motor Bn to form 13th SA Inf Bde).

2nd Polish Armd Bde would, indeed, be counted under the Br/CW umbrella, and I think include; 4th Armd Regt, 6th Armd Regt and 1st Krechowiecki Lancers.

Who else are we missing then?

Gary

[Kingfish]

That appears to be all for the Sherman/Churchill equipped Brit/CW formations

Lupo,
Do you only want the tank figures?
no SP AT?

[Andy H]

2nd Polish Armd Bde would, indeed, be counted under the Br/CW umbrella, and I think include; 4th Armd Regt, 6th Armd Regt and 1st Krechowiecki Lancers.

Gary

Hi Gary

It was intended to expand the 2nd Armd.Bde into a full Division by the addition of another Armd.Bde, the Wielkopolska (later re-numbered 14), consisting of the 3rd Silesian Lancers Regt, 15th Pozan Lancers Regt and the 10th Hussars Regt. However this Brigade never saw combat and was shipped back to Egypt for further training and equipment. It was intended to ship it back to Italy in the first days of January 1945, but it never happened. At the Wars end it consisted of 197 Officers and 3,708OR's

Regards

Andy H

[Lupo Solitario]

thanks for all your data, really useful

Yes, I'm interested in SP AT too, you could tell "everything with tracks and a cannon..."

[Gary Kennedy]

Well that does spread the net far and wide...

The British and Canadian Armd Divs both included an Atk Regt with two SP Btys (and two towed). The SA Armd Div presumably followed suit, as would the Polish Armd Div detailed by Andy H. I can't recall seeing anything that would suggest the 2NZEF had M10s, but they may have gotten some late on in the campaign. The same Atk Regt organisation was used by Corps Atk Regts as well. There were four Corps Atk Regts in Italy as of late Oct44 (according to Joslen), which then drops to one by mid-May45.

At the beginning of 1945 a theatre specific WE Table for an Atk Bty was issued in Italy, which from memory mixed towed and SP 17-prs; I've assumed that this was used by Inf Div Atk Regts, picking up the SP eqpts from the seemingly disbanded/transferred Corps Atk Regts, but it remains a suspicion only.

Gary

[Kingfish]

I can't recall seeing anything that would suggest the 2NZEF had M10s, but they may have gotten some late on in the campaign.

They did at least from the battle for Florence onward.


This one is passing through a village just south of the city

[Gary Kennedy]

Yep, if I'd have checked the 2NZEF website I'd have been reminded that their unique organisation also impacted on 7th NZA Atk Regt.

"The second novelty was training in 31 Battery to operate M10 ‘tank destroyers’. Nine of these 3-inch American naval guns mounted on Sherman chassis were made available on 26 June. "

"Three weeks after the men of 31 Battery first set eyes on an M10 they were in action with their ‘tank destroyers’. A and D Troops of 31 Battery were thus converted to M10 troops. Concurrently 32, 33 and 34 Batteries zeroed their 6-pounders and 17-pounders and 39 Battery had a two-day practice shoot with its mortars (4.2-inch). The 7th Anti-Tank also provided 25 lorries with drivers and spare drivers for long-distance transport duties."

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholady ... c19-1.html

"The 7th Anti-Tank ended up with the following components:

31 Battery A Troop M10s; B Troop 17-pounders
32 Battery C Troop M10s; D Troop 17-pounders
33 Battery E Troop M10s; F Troop 17-pounders
39 Battery, redesignated 34 Battery G, H, J and K Troops 4.2-inch mortars 5 Survey Troop

The 6-pounder troops were dropped from the establishment and each battery had one M10 troop and one 17-pounder troop."

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholady ... i-c21.html

Gary