Early war artillery doctrine

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Sheldrake
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Re: Early war artillery doctrine

#16

Post by Sheldrake » 13 Jul 2015, 17:32

Gooner1 wrote:
Urmel wrote:I think the only place where you would have seen massed fire was the Tobruk siege line. Everywhere else there probably was too much dispersion both for the regiments as well as the targets.
Battle of the Ypres–Comines Canal?
You would think so, given that it is part of Brooke's action. The effectiveness of the artillery in support along this line does get a mention in one of the papers compiled about 15 years ago for the 60th anniversary.(Fall of France 60 years on (??) ) However, the details are neither in Farndale's " Years of Defeat" nor Pemberton's WO study of Artillery equipment and Tactics 1950. Nor does it feature as a case study in war years RATM so it may not have been noticed or seen as significant at the time.

Looking at the Army Training Memoranda there is only three mentions of artillery between September 1939 and March 1941. Feb 1940 includes a check list for gunner young officers. The 20 may ATM includes an exhortation to go for speed rather than slavishly following procedures. Probably a little late to have much impact in France. There is also a piece on cross observation of air bursts as a way to register guns and to distribute a correction for met across a formation. Nothing whatsoever on artillery lessons from France - probably because of the lack of consensus about the conclusions to draw.

The April 1941 ATM, distributed army wide, included four memoranda on matters artillery including an annex describing the Sidi Barani action (above) in some detail. There is also a note that the new two troop batteries will have eleven wireless sets, including three high power sets carried in armoured OPs (carriers), which gives an indication of the pace at which the restructuring took place. Other notes include an exhortation to practice WT rather than telephone or cable and an announcement of the re-establishment of Regimental Survey Parties.

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Re: Early war artillery doctrine

#17

Post by David W » 13 Jul 2015, 20:46

I'm still not clear when or if the third troop in a battery received an OP.
Or when in 1941 the re-organisation took place in North Africa. (unless it is in April as mentioned above?)
I'm in a steep learning curve here!


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Re: Early war artillery doctrine

#18

Post by Urmel » 13 Jul 2015, 21:30

David, my guess is that the reorg took place from April onwards, but that it took time to filter through. You'd probably have to look into individual regiment war diaries to see when it happened for each of them. By the time of CRUSADER I think most if not all were on the new org.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Early war artillery doctrine

#19

Post by Sheldrake » 14 Jul 2015, 00:26

David W wrote:I'm still not clear when or if the third troop in a battery received an OP.
Or when in 1941 the re-organisation took place in North Africa. (unless it is in April as mentioned above?)
I'm in a steep learning curve here!
David,

The reorganisation took place over some time and would depend when the unit received the personnel and equipment for the re-organisation to make sense. There was a desperate shortage of both in the first half of 1941. Creating two extra OP parties per Regiment was lower priority than replacing the losses from Greece and Crete.

The Gunner Orbat for Op Crusader shows two batteries per regiment with Field Regiments of 24 guns and RHA Regiments of 16. This suggests that the re-organisation did not take place until the first half of 1942. This is consistent with the limited data on http://ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/page3.html The training note mentioned the equipment as a consequence of adopting the three battery structure, not just an extra captain and Op party with wireless sets. I think this took place in the lull before Gazala.

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Re: Early war artillery doctrine

#20

Post by Urmel » 14 Jul 2015, 07:37

Whoops, disregard my previous. Goes to show I need to read more closely. To make up for my mishtake here some war diary info.

60 Field reorganised at the end of October into a 2x2 structure. I have 1st Field on the same structure, with 11 and 52 Field Batteries (although the war diary sometimes mentions 116 Field Battery too), and A, B, D, and E troops, indicating they might have expected a 3-troop reorg? 8 Field also has a 2x2 structure at the end of December 1941, and 144 Field had the 2 battery structure in January 1942 and were poised to be re-orged into a 16-gun regiment in that month - they had a funky equipment list while in Tobruk - see here: http://rommelsriposte.com/2014/05/08/ar ... mber-1941/.

On 4 November 1941, the following Field Regiments still had only 16 guns: 1, 4, 8, 25, 28 Field Regiments, while 31, 51, 60, 72, 74, and 124 Field had 24 guns.

Interestingly, 4 R.H.A., which was also a 24-gun regiment on 4 November 1941, reorganised on 16 October 1941 into a 3x2 structure, with C, F, and Jerboa (later DD) batteries. They received 1 Major, 2 Captains, 6 Lieutenants and 2/Lieutenants, and 120 ORs as reinforcement in the week of the restructuring.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Early war artillery doctrine

#21

Post by David W » 14 Jul 2015, 07:56

Thanks one and all.

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Re: Early war artillery doctrine

#22

Post by Sheldrake » 14 Jul 2015, 10:48

Urmel wrote:Whoops, disregard my previous. Goes to show I need to read more closely. To make up for my mishtake here some war diary info.

60 Field reorganised at the end of October into a 2x2 structure. I have 1st Field on the same structure, with 11 and 52 Field Batteries (although the war diary sometimes mentions 116 Field Battery too), and A, B, D, and E troops, indicating they might have expected a 3-troop reorg? 8 Field also has a 2x2 structure at the end of December 1941, and 144 Field had the 2 battery structure in January 1942 and were poised to be re-orged into a 16-gun regiment in that month - they had a funky equipment list while in Tobruk - see here: http://rommelsriposte.com/2014/05/08/ar ... mber-1941/.

On 4 November 1941, the following Field Regiments still had only 16 guns: 1, 4, 8, 25, 28 Field Regiments, while 31, 51, 60, 72, 74, and 124 Field had 24 guns.

Interestingly, 4 R.H.A., which was also a 24-gun regiment on 4 November 1941, reorganised on 16 October 1941 into a 3x2 structure, with C, F, and Jerboa (later DD) batteries. They received 1 Major, 2 Captains, 6 Lieutenants and 2/Lieutenants, and 120 ORs as reinforcement in the week of the restructuring.
I was about to post the comment about 4 RHA which Farndale does note in his account that by "20th Nov 1941 4 RHA had reorganised into three batteries C, F and DD". Earlier in the chapter he gives the Regiment's strength as 16 guns and writes of the 4 RHA less C Battery as "12 Guns." Is your source the 4 RHA war diary? In which case I would conclude that General Martin had not checked the facts and add it to the list of Farndale fallibilites.

What is your source for the number of guns in the 16 gun regiments? It makes sense as these were the regiments overseas in 1939 and not incremented in 1939. It would imply that 31 Field, alone of 4 Indian Division's field artillery group had been augmented to 24 guns.

Pemberton in Development of artillery equipment and Tactics (1950) makes the observation that some 12 gun batteries were organised as two troops of six guns. The objection to six rather than four guns was the difficulty of finding gun positions big enough for six guns,. This would have been more of a problem in Europe or the NW Frontier than in the Western Desert and it would have been easier to accommodate extra guns by enlarging troops than finding the additional officers and technicians for a BCP and TCP.

There is a sketch map in Pemberton of the battle at Alem Hamza shows three troops of 31 Field Regt identified as B, D and E troops each with six guns. (A version of this appears in Farndale but with four guns per troop) The quote in Farndale from Frank Holden a No 1 in B troop, suggests that B Troop were from 116/118 and D &E were 105/119 battery, which took most of the casualties and were later awarded the honour title Alem Hamza.

1st Field Regt;'s 11 and 52 might have been a shorthand for 11/80 and 52/98 batteries from the numbers of the merged pre war batteries. 116 (116/118) was part of 31 field Regt - as above. What is the context of the WD entries for 116? One troop (six guns?) is missing from the sketch and "A Troop" might conceivable have been from 116/118 battery.

Is there any evidence for any of the other 24 gun regiments having a 2 x 2 structure?
Last edited by Sheldrake on 14 Jul 2015, 18:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Early war artillery doctrine

#23

Post by Urmel » 14 Jul 2015, 13:18

Hi

4 R.H.A. is their war diary, entry for 16 October. DD Battery was first named 'Jerboa', since they had received an order to form it, but no order on how to name it yet.

The list of regiments and guns is from an 8 Army Artillery Directorate document of 4 November 1941, listing gun stats in the Middle East. The document does not give an indication of regimental structure.

116 Battery crops up in the 1 Field war diary a few times, I just glanced through it this morning while still bleary-eyed, so not sure about attachment or not. It is in the context of the Sidi Omar battles.

I am not that strong yet on artillery war diaries, so this is all I have got for the moment.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Early war artillery doctrine

#24

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 14 Jul 2015, 18:25

Hi,

I have 8 Fd Regt's WD for November 1941 and they commanded two batteries - V/AA and W/X.

Regards

Tom

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Re: Early war artillery doctrine

#25

Post by David W » 15 Jul 2015, 08:01

Question.

If a 24 gun Regiment on a 2x12 structure changed to a 3x8 structure would it have been eligible for the extra OPs?
Because although their would have been an extra battery, there were no extra troops.

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Re: Early war artillery doctrine

#26

Post by Urmel » 15 Jul 2015, 08:38

I think that's a non sequitur David. :)
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Early war artillery doctrine

#27

Post by Sheldrake » 15 Jul 2015, 10:53

David W wrote:Question.

If a 24 gun Regiment on a 2x12 structure changed to a 3x8 structure would it have been eligible for the extra OPs?
Because although their would have been an extra battery, there were no extra troops.
A regiment converting from 2 x 12 to 3 x 8 needs an extra Major, (plus party and wireless vehicles) two extra OP parties wireless sets and vehicles and a battery command post including two officers (CPO ACPO) and a few bright gunners trained as technical assistants RA.

Part of the thinking behind the 1939 restructure to 2 x 12 was to save scarce specialist manpower and equipment. This produced a structure that did not work well and reversed between Oct 1940 and May 1942.

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Re: Early war artillery doctrine

#28

Post by David W » 15 Jul 2015, 20:10

Sheldrake. Thanks. So the extra OP parties were to bring the 24 gun structure up to strength.

Urmel. I don't understand what you mean, unless by "troops" you thought I meant men and not troops of guns, which was my intended.

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Re: Early war artillery doctrine

#29

Post by Urmel » 15 Jul 2015, 23:06

Hi David

No, I meant troops as in men. :) You stated as a fact that they didn't get extra men. I just pointed out that this was not a given. They might have received extra men, and the only place to check this is the war diary.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Early war artillery doctrine

#30

Post by David W » 15 Jul 2015, 23:08

No, as I stated above I meant troops of guns not troops as in men.

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