The American M1917 75mm gun and the 18 pdr

[sitalkes]

I've been reading about the American WW1 guns sent to Britain in 1940 and wonder if somebody can clear up a few points for me. As I understand it, the 18 pounder had a 3.3"/84mm bore.

I read that there were 851 American 18 pdrs and 900 ex-American French “75s” (the ancient 75mm N 1897 field gun) but both seem to be called the M1917. 900 guns were sent to Britain in 1940.

Is this the same gun??? 851 rounded up to 900? Or 851 18 pdrs + 900 75mm guns? 1000 rounds per gun and no more available - What did it have for AT ammunition and was that any good? Much of the following comes from Wikipedia but I've added other material from other sources.


The American 75mm gun, (75 mm Gun M1917)

The US decided early in World War I to switch from 3-inch (76 mm) to 75 mm calibre for its field guns. Its preferred gun for re-equipment was the French 75 mm Model of 1897, but early attempts to produce it in the US using US commercial mass-production techniques failed, partly due to delays in obtaining necessary French plans, and then their being incomplete or inaccurate, and partly because US industry was not equipped to work to Metric measurements. By 1917 US firms had produced 851 QF 18 pounders for export to Britain. Hence production of a 75 mm version offered a simple interim solution, being basically a copy of the British QF 18 pounder rechambered for French 75 mm ammunition, utilizing existing production capacity. It remained very similar to the 18 pounder, the main visible difference being a shorter barrel with straight muzzle. Its British designation was "Ordnance QF 75mm on Carriage, 75mm /18 pr Mark 1PA".

Early in World War II the US transferred its large remaining stocks of the M 1917 to Britain

The Americans had modernised its version of the French 1897 field gun with by changing the original pole trail carriage to a split trail, and spoked wheels to pneumatic tyres (for motorised traction). They didn’t have limbers and the guns had to be run up planks into lorries to move them. They were outranged by more modern designs and mixed calibres within units complicate operations. The ammunition was old and required re-conditioning and (with no local manufacturing capability) there was no means of obtaining more of it. Nevertheless the 1000 rounds supplied with each gun was enough for a few weeks' fighting and this was still a viable weapon with a high rate of fire. Its similarity to the 18 pounder made it useful for British home defence and training needs.

[Sheldrake]

In Farndale's volume of the Regimental History of the Royal Artillery covering "The Years of defeat, 1939-45" refers to the arrival after Dunkirk of "Several hundred US 75mm guns also of WW1 vintage being the US made versions of the M1896(sic) French gun." There is no mention of the "Ordnance QF 75mm on Carriage, 75mm /18 pr Mark 1PA", though there are images of this equipment in use, and apparently a surviving example in the IWM Duxford.

The entry in wikipedia on the M1917 says that "the US Transferred the remaining stocks to Britain" looks a little casually worded. It also states that 200 were sold to the Finns and at least 24 were still in the USA in March 1941 to be offered to the Greeks. So the British could not have received more than 627 M1917s. I suspect these may have made up part of the consignment of 900 75mm M1897 guns purchased by the British in 1940. There could not have been any simple "transfer" of guns prior to the Lease Lend agreements. The US Army was still using the m1897 in 1940 and it would have made a lot of sense to off load the versions on British carriages first. But that is just a hypothesis

[Richard Anderson]

I've been reading about the American WW1 guns sent to Britain in 1940 and wonder if somebody can clear up a few points for me. As I understand it, the 18 pounder had a 3.3"/84mm bore.

I read that there were 851 American 18 pdrs and 900 ex-American French “75s” (the ancient 75mm N 1897 field gun) but both seem to be called the M1917. 900 guns were sent to Britain in 1940.

Is this the same gun??? 851 rounded up to 900? Or 851 18 pdrs + 900 75mm guns? 1000 rounds per gun and no more available - What did it have for AT ammunition and was that any good? Much of the following comes from Wikipedia but I've added other material from other sources.

You must have missed the discussion of them in the Sea Lion thread earlier. I will paraphrase.

170 75mm Gun M1916 were supplied to the British through Lend-Lease, thus, after March 1941. They were designated the Ordnance, Q.F., 75-mm., "S", Marks II and II* on carriages, 75-mm., "S", Marks II and III, P.A. and were the 75mm Field Gun, M1916MIII on Carriage M1916A1 and the 75mm Field Gun, M1916M1A1 on Carriage M1916MI respectively. The M1916MIII utilized a Puteaux-type hydro-pneumatic recoil system and the M1916M1A1 the St Chamond hydro-spring. By 1940 the kinks in the St Chamond-type had supposedly been worked out.

395 75mm Gun M1917 were purchased and shipped in July-August 1940. British designation was Ordnance. QF 75mm Converted Mk 1 (wooden wheels) or Ordnance. QF 75mm Converted Mk 1* (pneumatic tyres).

500 75 mm Gun M1897A3 (French-produced M1897 brought up to modern standard with all modifications to date) were also purchased and shipped in July-August 1940. I believe all the carriages supplied were M1897M1A2, all of which utilized American-manufactured solid rubber tires (probably the Mk I designation, the pneumatic tires were apparently a British conversion). They could be adapted for high-speed transport, but I do not know how many adapter kits were supplied if any.

Where the numbers 851 "American 18 pdrs" (no such thing existed) and 900 "ex-American" came from is any ones guess. They are one and the same. 895 were purchased and 170 were Lend-Leased so the total was 1,065.

[sitalkes]

Thanks for that, I wonder where the 18 pdr stuff came from? They were to have been used as anti-tank guns, what did they have for AT ammunition and would it have been any good (i.e. better than HE since I suppose it didn't have a terribly high velocity)

[Juha Tompuri]

Something maybe related:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=152807
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY3.htm (scroll down a bit)

They were to have been used as anti-tank guns, what did they have for AT ammunition

In Finland we used at our US 75mm guns for instance the French 75 mm Model 1897 AT ammo (French M/1910 APHE projectile filled with picric). http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY3.htm (scroll down a bit)

Regards, Juha

[Richard Anderson]

Thanks for that, I wonder where the 18 pdr stuff came from? They were to have been used as anti-tank guns, what did they have for AT ammunition and would it have been any good (i.e. better than HE since I suppose it didn't have a terribly high velocity)

Well, the M1917 was in fact the British 18-pdr...but chambered for the "French" 75mm round. Since it looked like a duck, I suspect people that knew what a duck looked like decided it was a duck and so called it a duck...

Indeed, as Juha notes there were a number of ways these pieces could be used to fire an AP round even though an AP round was not originally supplied with them. Since it used a "common" round, any round designed for the "French 75mm" could be fired, including all those for the various French, Finnish, Belgian, Greek, Yugoslav, etc versions, as well as the US-designed M2 and M3 75mm Tank Gun. Unfortunately for the last they would have had to wait until American production ramped up, which wasn't until February 1942. That is why the last expedient, of using German 75mm AP projectiles mated to the American cartridge cases was employed for the Grant tanks during the Gazala battles and for some time thereafter.

[Knouterer]

In that earlier discussion, I quoted from minutes of the Defence Committee (Supply) on 16.7.1940 (in CAB 70/1), chaired by Churchill himself, where it was announced that the War Office and the Ministry of Supply proposed, in addition to the million 75 mm rounds already bought, to order 2,000,000 rounds in the USA (taking over French contracts), to produce a limited number (around 250,000) in Britain to gain experience in the techniques of production and filling, and thirdly to produce in Britain as quickly as possible 200,000 rounds of A.P. shot (first 50,000 without and the rest with tracer) – the idea being, apparently, to fit these to existing rounds, discarding old HE or shrapnel shells.

I don't have the document to hand but it was mentioned that the production line for 3" AA ammunition could be used to produce 75 mm AP shot.

No idea in how far the above actually happened; not that it makes much difference, a solid hit with a 75 mm or 18pdr HE shell would knock out a Pz III or IV just as well.

AP rounds for the 18pdr were available; however, according to Philson's OOB of the BEF, a (Territorial) battery equipped with twelve 18pdrs would carry 488 HE rounds, 392 shrapnel and 56 smoke.

Picture from a British manual (sorry, can't remember which one):

[Knouterer]

851, by the way, is (apparently) the number of 18pdrs produced in the USA (Bethlehem Steel) during WWI under British contracts. Probably not many of those left by 1940. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/75_mm_Gun_M1917

See also:
http://www.landships.info/landships/art ... 18pdr.html

[Knouterer]

According to the official History of the US Army in WWII, volume "Global Logistics and Strategy 1940-1943", p. 35:

"Of light artillery, the U.S. Army had on hand in the spring of 1940 4,470 75-mm. guns, including 3,450 of the French type, 700 of the British, and 320 of the American. Of these, only the French-type weapons were considered suitable for combat, and were being modernized for the purpose. In an emergency they would have to serve not only in their normal role of infantry support, but also as the only available substitute for the 37-mm. Antitank gun. Brig. Gen. Richard C. Moore, the Deputy Chief of Staff, estimated on the basis of PMP requirements and normal wastage that there would be a shortage of 3,220 of these guns within a year after war broke out. Nevertheless, he was willing to dispose of the British-type guns.
Two hundred were sold to the Finns in March, and on 4 June General Moore approved release to the British of the 395 remaining serviceable British-type guns. The President, dissatisfied with this contribution, ordered the release of five hundred of the French type over the protests of the General Staff.
One staff officer commented at the time that if sudden mobilisation were necessary "everyone who was a party to the deal might hope to be found hanging from a lamp-post.""

(PMP = Protective Mobilisation Plan)

[Richard Anderson]

851, by the way, is (apparently) the number of 18pdrs produced in the USA (Bethlehem Steel) during WWI under British contracts. Probably not many of those left by 1940. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/75_mm_Gun_M1917

See also:
http://www.landships.info/landships/art ... 18pdr.html

One of these days I'm going to have to consolidate everything on the American 75mm artillery pieces from the Great War...it seems there is enough interest in them they have generated two new threads here.

First, Bethlehem Steel had two contracts for the British gun. One was from the British government before the US entered the war and was for copies of the 18-pdr. Yes, 851 of those were contracted for, but actually only 38 of them apparently were actually completed as 18-pdr. The second contract was with the US government and substituted the 75mm version for the 18-pdr. A total of 909 complete 75mm M1917 guns (supposedly not including the 38 built as 18-pdr) and 921 carriages were produced by 17 April 1919 (839 complete M1917 75mm guns and carriages by 1 January 1919 had been completed in the US) when wartime contracts were cancelled. The 75mm version were all retained by the US Army. In 1940, 200 were offered to Finland and 395 to Britain. Another 48 were assigned to the artillery of the Hawaiian Division and 48 were shipped to the Philippine Army. So 691 of the 909. The fate of the other 218 is not know, but they were likely used for Ordnance tests during the 1920's and 1930's (since funding for new gun development was almost nonexistent, Ordnance used components from existing pieces over and over again.

Second, there is the M1916. A total of 810 Guns were reported produced (but see below for some contradictory figures). Of those, 170 went to Britain as Lend-Lease in 1941. Another 60 are listed as Lend-Lease to "minor nations"; unfortunately without more specific information. It is unlikely the 75 to 125 mentioned in the other thread on Proposed US Military Equipment to Greece would have been Lend-Leased to Yugoslavia and Greece, since Yugoslavia and Greece were overrun before Lend-Lease went into effect. It is possible they were sold under cash and carry provisions to Yugoslavia (and the 60 that went to other countries were completed deliveries). I'll continue to dig to see if I can confirm that cash sale. Unfortunately that only accounts for 355 of the 810 produced. I know it was in widespread use as a sub-caliber gun for Coast Artillery training, but the number converted also remains elusive. OTOH, we have the War Department remark that 320 of the "American type" (i.e. M1916) were available in April 1940. If not, then the number shipped under the elusive Yugoslav/Greek contract likely were no more than about 90 (320 available minus 230 known Lend-Lease). Furthermore, by 17 April 1919 when all remaining wartime contracts were cancelled, only 307 M1916 Carriages and 726 Guns were completed (251 of those by 1 January 1919), so it is quite possible the War Department figure of April 1940 only counts 320 complete guns and carriages. It is known BTW, that 19 Guns and 34 Carriages were shipped to France before the Armistice in 1918. Just like the M1917, the M1916 was also the basis for much Ordnance experimentation between the wars and was likely the basis for the T1 through T6 series of 75mm AA guns which was the actual ancestor of the M2/M3 75mm Tank Gun. (And see also below, 51 M1916 guns were produced as SP AA guns.)

Third there is the M1897, which is just as problematic, since the exact figures on how many purchased from the French were returned to the US are difficult to determine, as is the number actually produced by the US (the figure of 1,050 for US production commonly quoted is just for production through Armistice Day, but production continued into 1919 before all contracts were cancelled...and all 75mm gun production may only have been 932 anyway - Ordnance was trying to cover its ass and so the numbers reported are pretty flaky). The accepted figure is that 1,828 French-produced guns were sold to the US in France (and an extra 60 were possibly delivered) and another 143 US production arrived in France before the end of the war. So theoretically, 2,0311 were in France to be shipped to the US...except it is unclear if all were. US production through 17 April 1917 was 1,050 guns and 1,299 carriages. So in theory at least 3,008 guns were available, indicating that at least 442 more were produced or purchased at some time to make up the 3,450 "French type" reported by the War Department in April 1940.

Except there is also the 75mm AA guns produced for the Great War. A total of 51 truck-mounted AA versions of the M1916 Gun (confusingly called the M1917 AA Gun Truck-mounted) were ordered in July 1917. Another 50 non-mobile carriages were also produced and shipped to France, where they were mated to French 75mm guns...but it is unknown if those are included in the total of M1897 above - it may account for the "extra 60" over and above the 1,828 contracted for, giving 50 mounted and 10 spares.

Are we all confused enough yet?

[OldBill]

Back in 1994, we (the US) invaded Haiti, removing General Cedras's and allowing Aristide to return. I was involved in that. Late one afternoon, while sitting on the loading dock of the warehouse/barracks (we were housed in the international warehouse in Port Au Prince) the Army brought the Haitian Armor and Artillery park in . A few Cadillac Gage Armored cars, missing various things. Six or eight Bofors 40 L70's, and lastly, a battery of M1917 Field Guns. I stood, watching dumbfounded as these antique veterans were wheeled past. I never found out what happened to them or the other weapons, but at least I got to see them.

[LMG15]

Richard, a very good summary of the M1917 75mm - many thanks. I have had the privilege of going over one of the 200 guns sent to Finland. The example I have examined is very close to the dimensions of the British produced 18Pr, and would appear interchangeable with the obvious exception of the barrel's bore and extractors. This gun still has the No.45 type British wooden wheels, but has been modified in 1955 according to the data plate. This mainly involved replacing the rocking bar sight with a German style range drum to hold the dial sight, and removing the leveling part of the elevation screw mechanism, leaving only the upper range setting section.

The US also supplied several obsolete guns to the Netherlands Government, although it was in exile at the time. These included some of the US M1916 field guns and may be some of the guns provided to "minor nations". All were apparently captured in the Netherlands East Indies soon after arriving.

The other gun provided to the Netherlands Govt (presumably through their purchasing office in NYC) were the 3inch Mk.VII Landing Gun. These were ultimately diverted to Australia in early 1942 after the collapse of the NEI, and remained there until scrapped. Do you have any information on these guns? cheers, Damien

[Richard Anderson]

The other gun provided to the Netherlands Govt (presumably through their purchasing office in NYC) were the 3inch Mk.VII Landing Gun. These were ultimately diverted to Australia in early 1942 after the collapse of the NEI, and remained there until scrapped. Do you have any information on these guns? cheers, Damien

I'm afraid I don't have anything other than what NAVWEAPS has compiled. " Mark 7 was Erhardt-type landing gun built by the American-British Manufacturing Company with a horizontally-sliding breech block." If you can find a copy of United States Naval Guns Their Marks and Modifications Ordnance Pamphlet No. 127, December 1916, or the First Revision, January 1919, or the Second Revision, June 1924, you should have all the info you need.

[LMG15]

Thanks Richard. I was fortunate to have the assistance of Nelson Lawry in doing some research on all aspects of the gun, and I have a couple of different versions of the handbooks and pams. So I have some good info on the physical specs of the gun as well as its development by Erhardt. While am naturally interested in finding anything new, I am not sure there is much left to find in this line of inquiry without deep dives into the archives. However, from your posts above, you have a good handle on the dispersal of obsolete guns various at the start of WW2. So in that vein, I was wondering if you had seen anything on the 3in Mk.VII LGs? Seems not, but the supply of weapons to the Dutch before and during the Japanese invasion does seem to be steeped in mystery. All I know is that maybe a dozen guns were provided to the Dutch, and these were fitted with the Martin Parry high speed wheel equipment before shipping out. Two more or less complete guns remain in Australian collections, as well as parts from another two.

For a gun that was the mainstay of the USMC artillery in far flung outposts from 1911 to 1936(?), I understand that there are no examples remaining in the USA, and none outside Australia. That is a bit of a shame, but you never know what may turn up...