British 52nd (Lowland) Mountain Division

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British 52nd (Lowland) Mountain Division

#1

Post by Andy H » 21 Dec 2004, 18:42

This division had spent some 2yrs training in Mountain warfare, before being retrained as a Airtransportable Division from April'44, and being commited to ground fighting in France from September'44.

1) Why given the difficulties the Allies were facing in Italy, wasn't this division kept as a mountain division and deployed there?

2)Did the Allies have need of a dedicated Air-Transportable Division at this stage of the war, given that we had 3 combat ready Airborne Divisions?

3)In the end the division served as regular infantry, and they were criticised for there combat value by the British military. I would garner that there morale was effected for the worse by the constant re-roling and then misuse of skills at hand!

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Re: British 52nd (Lowland) Mountain Division

#2

Post by JonS » 21 Dec 2004, 22:05

Andy H wrote:1) Why given the difficulties the Allies were facing in Italy, wasn't this division kept as a mountain division and deployed there?
By '44 the Brits - like the French and Americans - were drawing down their forces in Italy. I can't imagine they'd want to send a whole 'nother division there just before D-Day.
2)Did the Allies have need of a dedicated Air-Transportable Division at this stage of the war, given that we had 3 combat ready Airborne Divisions?
As it turned out - no. But as you are no doubt aware, the 52nd was slated to fly into - for example - Arnhem after the Airborne chaps had done their stuff. Presumably what passed for airborne orthodoxy at the time called for rapid reinforcement after the initial drop by more durable formations (more firepower, larger bns). The 52nd would have fitted that requirement.
3)In the end the division served as regular infantry, and they were criticised for there combat value by the British military. I would garner that there morale was effected for the worse by the constant re-roling and then misuse of skills at hand!
Nobody likes being dicked about. Especially when you've been trained for several years as an 'elite' (in two different but related roles), then on what appears to be a whim told "Nah, just kidding. You guys are just grunts. Go to Germany and do some grunting" ;)

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#3

Post by Andy H » 22 Dec 2004, 03:51

Andy H wrote:
1) Why given the difficulties the Allies were facing in Italy, wasn't this division kept as a mountain division and deployed there?

JonS replied:
By '44 the Brits - like the French and Americans - were drawing down their forces in Italy. I can't imagine they'd want to send a whole 'nother division there just before D-Day
Hi Jon, I agree that the Allied force in Italy were being drawn down, to facilitate the provision of forces for DDay. So why not send the 52nd to Italy where's skills would be most effective and remove another line infantry division to take its place in the DDay OoB

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#4

Post by Polynikes » 22 Dec 2004, 15:52

After Rome fell and Italy was knocked out of the war, the main effort was in France so no new troops would be sent to Italy.

As was later discovered, the troops that were withdrwn from Italy - like the famous 7th Armoured "Dsert Rats" Division - performed poorly compared to the "green" divisions.

The concept of "battle-hardedned" was a fallacy - "battle-wearied" was more applicable.

The 7th Armoured took the view that they'd "done their bit".

I don't know how many Gurkhas were in Italy in 1944 but they would probably make the best Alpine troops for the British army.

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#5

Post by JonS » 23 Dec 2004, 13:12

Polynikes wrote:I don't know how many Gurkhas were in Italy in 1944 but they would probably make the best Alpine troops for the British army.
At least 3 bns (in the Ghurka Lorried Inf Bfe), and perhaps a couple more (one in each of the Indian Inf Divs). Not that many in the grand scheme of things.

Andy,
you said that the 5snd was "criticised for their combat value by the British military". Besides the morale issues, what are the chances that this was because the 52nd was publically going through the growing pains that the rest of the BLA went through in Normandy eight months earlier? Compared to the rest of the inf divs, it may have actually performed quite well in its first engagements. However, by early 45 the rest of the BLA had shaken themselves out and become quite effective, so the 52nd would have looked poor in comparison. Apples and oranges, etc.

Jon

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#6

Post by Polynikes » 23 Dec 2004, 17:34

Jon

At least 3 bns (in the Ghurka Lorried Inf Bfe), and perhaps a couple more (one in each of the Indian Inf Divs). Not that many in the grand scheme of things.


http://gurkhahome.tripod.com/id3.html

"In the Second World War there were no fewer than 40 Gurkha Battalions in British Service, as well as parachute, garrison and training units. In all this total sum 112,000 men. Side by side with British and Commonwealth troops Gurkhas fought in Syria, the Western Desert, Italy and Greece, from North Malaya to Singapore and from the Siamese Border back through Burma to Imphal and then forward to Rangoon.

You could make a couple of Alpine divisions out of 40 battalions and send the rest to Burma.

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#7

Post by twamhk » 06 Jan 2005, 09:25

After Rome fell and Italy was knocked out of the war, the main effort was in France so no new troops would be sent to Italy
The 10th Mountain (American) was deployed to Italy in Feb '45 and saw combat.[/b]

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#8

Post by Michael Emrys » 15 Jan 2005, 04:39

Andy H wrote:So why not send the 52nd to Italy where's skills would be most effective and remove another line infantry division to take its place in the DDay OoB
It might not have been felt that the required shipping was justified.

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#9

Post by Andy H » 15 Jan 2005, 18:07

Grease_Spot wrote:
Andy H wrote:So why not send the 52nd to Italy where's skills would be most effective and remove another line infantry division to take its place in the DDay OoB
It might not have been felt that the required shipping was justified.
Well I would agree, if for the fact that with the withdrawl of experienced units for the DDay operation, mean't that new and rested division's were sent (shipped) to replave them.

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#10

Post by 1.4papa » 14 Apr 2005, 12:47

Hi there!

This might be a bit late, but

The 52nd was maybe not so misused after all. Part of the idea with making them mountain qualified was to prepare them for the projected liberation of Norway by force, and liberating Norway (just as invading it did), would inevitably lead to some walking up and down mountains. The 52nd was the closest thing to a parent formation for the Norwegian Brigade in Scotland (multi-arm battlegroup with infantry, artillery and armoured recce), and they trained a lot together, which I believe was made a point of in propaganda distributed by the resistance in Norway (thus informing the Germans too) .

This plan (can´t remember the codename) was never put to use, and some say it may have been a bluff all along, but it did succeed in keeping a large number of German troops tied up in Norway (and later peacefully surrendering), instead of delaying the allied victory longer on the continent.

So basically, by keeping the 52nd, mountain trained and equipped, along with the exile Norwegians, and different phantom units in Scotland, seemingly preparing to attack Norway (which Hitler considered as a likely scenario), the invasion of France and advance on Germany probably went a tad easier for the units actually advancing. Never say sitting around and doing "nothing" is not productive :lol:

More info, see the "Scottish units in the world wars" book by Mike Chappell, Osprey Elite series.

Regards

1.4papa

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#11

Post by Michael Emrys » 14 Apr 2005, 14:53

1.4papa wrote:This plan (can´t remember the codename)...
Would that be Fortitude North? That was the name of the deception plan at any rate. I'm not sure what they would have called it had they actually gone ahead and invaded.

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#12

Post by Andy H » 14 Apr 2005, 20:05

Would that be Fortitude North? That was the name of the deception plan at any rate. I'm not sure what they would have called it had they actually gone ahead and invaded
Yep Fortitude North (FN) was the deception plan. It had the same premise as Fortitude South, though any failure wouldn't have had the dire consequence of the latter operation failing.

Prior to FN, the Allies in the Autumn of 1943 had run another deception plan called Tindall. The 52nd was apart of these deception plans on both occassions.

The plan envisaged a two pronged assault against Narvik (to secure the supply route to Sweden) & Stavanger (to march on Oslo and then Denmark)

Under the notional British 4th Army (Lt-Gen Sir Andrew Thorne), the Narvik force would be under the control of the notional British VII Corps at Dundee as well as the 52nd Lowland Division, with a Norwegian brigade at Callander, plus the notional US 55th Infantry Division and US Ranger Btn's-7th,9th & 10th all in Iceland.
The Stavanger force would be under the British II Corps (which was being disbanded) at Stirling. With the British 3rd Infantry Division on the Moray Firth, British 55th Infantry Division in N.Ireland, along with the British 113th Infantry Brigade in the Orkneys. The follow up force (which would march on Oslo) was composed of the genuine American XV Corps, with the 2nd,5th & 8th Infantry Divisions.

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Re: British 52nd (Lowland) Mountain Division

#13

Post by Richard Sands » 31 Oct 2018, 13:57

The Lovat Scouts went to Italy, July 1944 and were used as Mountain recce battalion, often operating behind enemy lines.

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