Division "Y" or "Y" Division

[eiserne kreuz]

Please could someone give me some info on "Y" Division, I know it was formed in Tunisia in early 1943 as a temporary measure and had at one point the British 1st Parachute Brigade and the 38th(Irish) Infantry Brigade under it, Any more information would be useful, such as when and where formed and disbanded, any other subordinate units. Thanks in advance.

[Andy H]

I've not come across this 'formation' before

What's your source for its existence?

Andy H

[Andy H]

The 38th served within Y between 16/2/43-15/3/43

Andy H

[Andy H]

I haven't been able to assign 1st Para Bde to this unit.

At the time 38th Bde was assigned to Y, the 1st Para Bde were under 6th Armoured Division & 46th Infantry Divisions control. Also the 38th left 6th Armoured's control on 16/02/43 when it came under Y's control

Andy H

[Andy H]

Apologies for the seperate posts.

Just a thought, maybe Y Division was a temp move to cover the arrival of the British 5th Infantry Division into GHQ MEF from Persia & Iraq. The divisional symbol being a white Y, given its Yorkshire roots.

Andy H

[eiserne kreuz]

Thanks for prompt reply. I came across "Y" Division in the book "The bloody Road to Tunis". I was sure I read about 1st Parachute Brigade being assigned, even if it was on a temporary basis. I scribbled down the two brigades that I could discover. The author also mentions it in the back of the bookin the order of battle info.

[Andy H]

I have that book I hadn't noticed it within the OoB before-need new MKI Eyeballs

Anyway in Vol IV of The Mediterranean and Middle East by Playfair I found the following reference:

In the Teboursouk-El Aroussa sector, held by 78th & 'Y' (this, a collection of detachments) Divisions, Weber made almost no impression.

This action was part of the German operation Ochsenkopf, which ran from 26/2 to 19/03 roughly. There is a map which indicates that 1st Para & 38th were under its control, plus possibly 6 Commando

Keep searching

Andy H

[DMaltby]

Hi lads,
Im not sure but I think the Y division is the 5th. It was called the fifth Yorkshire division and its insignia was a white Y on a black circle.

[Andy H]

Hi lads,
Im not sure but I think the Y division is the 5th. It was called the fifth Yorkshire division and its insignia was a white Y on a black circle.

Hi

I did mention this idea earlier, but after reading further into the matter I think the Y Division, at least in the context of the thread posters question, was a seperate and temp entity.

I agree that the 5th may well have been known as the Y Division because of its Divisional emblem, but I have no proof to back that up

Regards

Andy H

[Steen Ammentorp]

My information on British units is very limited but here is what I got:

According to Gregory Blaxland (1977): The Plain Cook and the Great Showman : The First and Eight Armies in North Africa, the Y division was formed on the 17th February 1943.

6th Armoured Division had also been summoned southwards, leaving behind the Irish and Parachute Brigades to defend the Bou Arada sector as a scratch division, named Y, which was commanded initially by Brigadier Lyon Smith, the CRA.

p.159

Now Blaxland only refers to this division on two other pages (171 & 173) and you don't get a clear picture but apparently the Derbyshire Yeomanry and the 142nd RAC was also subordinated on the 26th February. The commander is now Nelson Russell

In Blaxland's appendix A: Orders of Battle under the 78th Division he has the 1st Para Brigade, but detached to 6th Armoured Division 2nd February 1943 the Y division 16th February to 5th March. 1943 Strangely enough 38th Brigade under 6th Armoured Division is not mentioned to have been detached to the Y Division however it is mentioned that it joined the 78th Division on the 14th of March. Btw. 1st Derbyshire Yeomanry is listed as Divisional Troops to 6th Armoured Division.

However knowning that Russell were in charge of the Y Division I took a closer look at Richard Doherty (1993): Irish Generals : Irish Generals in the British Army in the Second World War. Sadly it is lacking precise dates but Doherety gives the formation of the Y Division as mid February consisting of:

This ad hoc force was made up of the Irish Brigade, the Parashute Brigade, a French Regiment and sufficient artillery for its needs as well some armour.

p. 108

On the next page Doherety goes on quoting Russell but gives no source:

I found a RESERVE. This erratic and unusual attitude to war in North Africa naturally met with a good deal of local opposition, but two days after the formation of Y Div. I had a divisional reserve of one battalion – THE FAUGHS – a squadron of Churchills (scrounged from Corps) (142nd RAC?) and a squadron of Derby Yeomanry. It is true that the remaining battalions – previously very stretched – were now more than very stretched, and the battalion commanders disclaimed all responsibility for forcible extended line fronts. But I had my Reserve – I almost felt comfortable

p. 108

Italics my comments.

Doherety then goes on describing the battle from the 26th February until the early days of March, during which Russell received reinforcements: 1st Gds Bde, an American Regimental Combat Team, a tank regiment of Churchills and some anti-tank guns.

There is no mention of when the Y division was disbanded in March, just that the Paras were the first to leave and then the Americans.

I hope this was of interest.

Kind Regards
Steen Ammentorp
The Generals of World War II

[Andy H]

Excellent Steen

Gives us some new avenue's to explore

Regards

Andy H

[Andy H]

Had a look in Ken Fords divisional history of the 6th Armoured Division , "Mailed Fist (6th Armoured Division at war)" and he states that Y Division consisted of 38th Brigade, 1st Parachute Bde, a Btn of French Infantry and the 152nd Field Regt RA.

He also states that 38th Brigade went to the 78th Division and not back 6th Armoured.

Andy H

[Andy H]

So to re-cap, Y Division was formed on 17th February 1943 and disbanded on (at least in existence till 15th March) ?

It's commanding officer was (intially Brigadier Lyon Smith, a artillery officer), then (Brigadier N Russell from 38 Brigade)

Its main definative formations were:

38th (Irish) Infantry Brigade (CO Brigadier N Russell)
:- 1st Royal Irish Fusiliers
:- 6th Inniskilling
:- 2nd London Irish Rifles

1st Parachute Brigade (Brigadier E W C Flavell)
:- 1st Parachute Btn
:- 2nd Parachute Btn
:- 3rd Parachute Btn
:- 1st Parachute Sqn RE
:- 16th Parachute Field Ambulance
:- J Section 2 Company Airborne Divisional Signals

Those units in Italics were officially attached to the Brigade between 23/09/42 & 06/05/43. Though wheather they stayed with the Brigade during Y's existence can't be confirmed 100% it seems likely they were.

Units likely within its make up were:

:- Sqn Derbyshire Yeomanry
:- Sqn 142 RAC (Churchills)
:- 152nd Field Regt RA
:- A French Infantry Regiment or Battalion

Units that have been identified as operating with Y, but may not have been officially Y OoB

:- 1st Guards Brigade (CO Brigadier F A V Copland-Griffiths)
:- 3rd Grenadier Guards
:- 2nd Coldstream Guards
:- 2nd Hampshire Regt (18th Feb'43 to 22nd Feb)
:- 3rd Welsh Guards (from 1st March'43)
:- 9th Welch Regt (from 9th March'43

*** It seems that from March 9th this Brigade had 4 Btn's under its control

:- American RCT
:- British Tank Regt (Churchills)
:- AT-TK unit(?)

Others

No 6 Commando

Regards

Andy H

[Michael Emrys]

:- 16th Parachute Field Ambulance

Now that must have been interesting. I wonder what kinds of vehicles they used. Or were they just litter bearers?

[Andy H]

:- 16th Parachute Field Ambulance

Now that must have been interesting. I wonder what kinds of vehicles they used. Or were they just litter bearers?

From http://www.1stairborne.com/fieldamb.html

Following this engagement there soon came reports that an attack was expected on the 1st Para Brigade and so sections of the Ambulance were assigned to each of the battalions. The attack came on the 20th February but the Brigade held firm in spite of many casualties, which kept every man of the Ambulance busy with stretcher-bearer duties; the terrain being wholly unsuitable for the use of their vehicles

So they had vehicles but couldn't use them

Andy H