Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War II?

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War I

#16

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Feb 2016, 14:57

Hi wm,

Your reference to Hague 1907 is to the conduct of war, not the nature of any peace settlement.

Hague 1907 doesn't give a state complete immunity to territorial loss however appallingly it may have acted.

Had Germany not suffered territorial losses, it would have emerged from WWII untouched, despite all the misery it had inflicted on others.

As individuals, I have sympathy for the expelled Germans, in so far as they bore a disproportionate share of Germany's punishment. But for Germany collectively I do not feel such sympathy. It couldn't do what it did, or attempted to do, and reasonably expect to get off territorially unmodified.

The question was, "Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War II?" As the immediate cause of WWII was the Nazis' attempt to consolidate all neighbouring German minorities into a single state, the answer to the question is arguably "No". Why? Because the problem of discontented German neighbouring minorities was effectively resolved by this action.

In one way the Nazis actually achieved their aim, because their actions have resulted in almost all Germans being consolidated into a single German state - just not the much larger state they were aiming for.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War I

#17

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 11 Feb 2016, 15:38

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Jan-Hendrik,

Mistakes at Versailles? Surely Germany got off quite lightly. Its territory was never fought over, it lost "only" territories with non-German majorities (amounting to about 12% of its area) and "only" had to pay indemnities exactly as France fully did after 1870.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid, read my post again. As you surely know the consequenses of the 'cease fire' of Paris did not only touch germany, but EVERY country in Eastern Europe....the powder basket which lead sorrowly consequent to WW2. As it was not only the polish-german border problems at all...

Jan-Hendrik


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Gorque
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Orderly and Humane

#18

Post by Gorque » 11 Feb 2016, 19:34

An excellent study, Orderly and Humane by R.M. Douglas, goes into a fair amount of detail regarding the planning by the Big 3, the actual on the expulsions of Germans from their former homelands throughout the various regions of Europe and the differing Western Allies response to the unexpected number of expellees and their physical condition upon arrival. I highly recommend it.

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Re: Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War I

#19

Post by wm » 11 Feb 2016, 23:27

Sid Guttridge wrote: Hague 1907 doesn't give a state complete immunity to territorial loss however appallingly it may have acted.

Had Germany not suffered territorial losses, it would have emerged from WWII untouched, despite all the misery it had inflicted on others.
Unfortunately the question was about expulsions not territorial losses.
Hague 1907 doesn't give an immunity in this case but it shows that even then collective guilt, collective punishment or even selective collective punishment like in "the expelled Germans carried the can for all Germans" were considered improper.

Concepts like war indemnity, reparations, territorial loss or gain were well known, but collective punishment didn't have precedence in modern history if I'm not mistaken.

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Re: Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War I

#20

Post by Karelia » 12 Feb 2016, 02:25

Sid Guttridge wrote:...
Had Germany not suffered territorial losses, it would have emerged from WWII untouched, despite all the misery it had inflicted on others.
...
"Untouched" - if we ignore the minor annoyances such as millions of killed and wounded (and raped) civilians and soldiers, millions of soldiers and civilians as POWs for up to 15 years, every single city in ruins, the economy totally devastated, the hole country under occupation plus famine. Untouched indeed.
Sid Guttridge wrote: The question was, "Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War II?" As the immediate cause of WWII was the Nazis' attempt to consolidate all neighbouring German minorities into a single state, the answer to the question is arguably "No". Why? Because the problem of discontented German neighbouring minorities was effectively resolved by this action.
...
The immediate cause of the WW2 in Europe was the alliance between the SU and Germany. BOTH dictatorships wanted to expand.

The result of the war - approved by the UK and the USA - was the creation of Russian minorities in all over Eastern Europe and Asia. This has caused increasing amount of troubles - including the ongoing war in Ukraine.
Last edited by Karelia on 12 Feb 2016, 05:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War I

#21

Post by Gorque » 12 Feb 2016, 05:02

Karelia wrote:The result of the war - approved by the UK and the USA - was the creation of Russian minorities in all over Eastern Europe and Asia. This has caused increasing amount of troubles - including the ongoing war in Ukraine.
Slightly off-topic, but still relevant to the quoted text, the world is still/was/will continue to sort out the collective messes created by the Western Allies following the Great War; Central and Eastern Europe, pre second phase of the second Thirty Years War, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Syria, North Africa..... Ah well, their publicly stated intentions were good. Strange how real life inter ethnic/national animosities can easily scupper the best made plans of the dweĺlers of Ivory Towers. 8-)

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Re: Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War I

#22

Post by Futurist » 13 Feb 2016, 01:03

Karelia wrote:The result of the war - approved by the UK and the USA - was the creation of Russian minorities in all over Eastern Europe and Asia. This has caused increasing amount of troubles - including the ongoing war in Ukraine.
The thing is, though, that there was already a large ethnic Russian minority in Eastern Ukraine before 1939.

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Re: Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War I

#23

Post by Karelia » 13 Feb 2016, 03:11

Futurist wrote:
Karelia wrote:The result of the war - approved by the UK and the USA - was the creation of Russian minorities in all over Eastern Europe and Asia. This has caused increasing amount of troubles - including the ongoing war in Ukraine.
The thing is, though, that there was already a large ethnic Russian minority in Eastern Ukraine before 1939.
I was speaking in general, but also in Eastern Ukraine the amount and the share of the Russians increased heavily after the war, although there indeed used to be a sicnificant Russian minority already before that. The same thing happened everywhere in the USSR.

However to be fair one can't blame the West for the increased Russification of Eastern Ukraine.

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Re: Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War I

#24

Post by Futurist » 13 Feb 2016, 03:14

Karelia wrote:
Futurist wrote:
Karelia wrote:The result of the war - approved by the UK and the USA - was the creation of Russian minorities in all over Eastern Europe and Asia. This has caused increasing amount of troubles - including the ongoing war in Ukraine.
The thing is, though, that there was already a large ethnic Russian minority in Eastern Ukraine before 1939.
I was speaking in general, but also in Eastern Ukraine the amount and the share of the Russians increased heavily after the war, although there indeed used to be a sicnificant Russian minority already before that. The same thing happened everywhere in the USSR.

However to be fair one can't blame the West for the increased Russification of Eastern Ukraine.
Actually, while I am unsure about Eastern Ukraine, I would like to point out that the Russification of Ukrainian cities such as Odessa began either in the 1800s or even earlier than the 1800s; after all, almost half of Odessa's population in 1897 was composed of ethnic Russians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa#Hi ... omposition

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Re: Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War I

#25

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Feb 2016, 12:45

Double post. See below.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 13 Feb 2016, 12:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War I

#26

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Feb 2016, 12:46

Hi wm,

I didn't say that the eastern Germans sufferered collective punishment for all Germans. I said they carried the can for all Germans.

However one is going to slice it, some Germans were inevitably going to suffer at the peace more than others. In this case it was the eastern Germans. The reason it was them rather than others was that it was their disputed status that was the proximate cause of the war.

That status was resolved by the expulsions. There has been no more problems over German minorities since then. It therefore rather looks that the expulsions were not a "mistake".

I you want to argue on legalistic or moral grounds, you may have a better point but, on a pragmatic level, it doesn't look like a "mistake".

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War I

#27

Post by Karelia » 13 Feb 2016, 17:39

Futurist wrote:
Karelia wrote: I was speaking in general, but also in Eastern Ukraine the amount and the share of the Russians increased heavily after the war, although there indeed used to be a sicnificant Russian minority already before that. The same thing happened everywhere in the USSR.

However to be fair one can't blame the West for the increased Russification of Eastern Ukraine.
Actually, while I am unsure about Eastern Ukraine, I would like to point out that the Russification of Ukrainian cities such as Odessa began either in the 1800s or even earlier than the 1800s; after all, almost half of Odessa's population in 1897 was composed of ethnic Russians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa#Hi ... omposition
Yes, the Russification of Ukraine indeed started already in the Imperial time. It continued during the soviet time - and not only by importing more ethnic Russians but also by suppressing the Ukrainian language and identity.

Naturally the Russification rate was not equal everywhere. In Odessa, where already was a significant Russian population, the growth was moderate. On the other hand e.g. in Crimea the impact was severe - boosted by the Stalin's ethnic cleansings of e.g. the indigenous Crimean Tatars.

Here's the data showing the overall share of the ethnic Russians in Ukraine. It's worth remembering, that the share of native Russian speakers was higher and grew more.

Census year
Total population
of Ukraine Russians %
1922 29,018,187 2,677,166 9.2%
1939 30,946,218 4,175,299 13.4%
1959 41,869,046 7,090,813 16.9%
1970 47,126,517 9,126,331 19.3%
1979 49,609,333 10,471,602 21.1%
1989 51,452,034 11,355,582 22.1%
2001 48,457,000 8,334,100 17.2%
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Ukraine

When I talked about the after WW2 Russification allowed by the West I mainly referred to areas such as the Baltics and the Eastern Poland. However the Russification of Crimea after the WW2 was the base for the war in Ukraine today.

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Re: Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War I

#28

Post by Futurist » 14 Feb 2016, 11:04

Karelia wrote:
Futurist wrote:
Karelia wrote: I was speaking in general, but also in Eastern Ukraine the amount and the share of the Russians increased heavily after the war, although there indeed used to be a sicnificant Russian minority already before that. The same thing happened everywhere in the USSR.

However to be fair one can't blame the West for the increased Russification of Eastern Ukraine.
Actually, while I am unsure about Eastern Ukraine, I would like to point out that the Russification of Ukrainian cities such as Odessa began either in the 1800s or even earlier than the 1800s; after all, almost half of Odessa's population in 1897 was composed of ethnic Russians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa#Hi ... omposition
Yes, the Russification of Ukraine indeed started already in the Imperial time. It continued during the soviet time - and not only by importing more ethnic Russians but also by suppressing the Ukrainian language and identity.

Naturally the Russification rate was not equal everywhere. In Odessa, where already was a significant Russian population, the growth was moderate. On the other hand e.g. in Crimea the impact was severe - boosted by the Stalin's ethnic cleansings of e.g. the indigenous Crimean Tatars.

Here's the data showing the overall share of the ethnic Russians in Ukraine. It's worth remembering, that the share of native Russian speakers was higher and grew more.

Census year
Total population
of Ukraine Russians %
1922 29,018,187 2,677,166 9.2%
1939 30,946,218 4,175,299 13.4%
1959 41,869,046 7,090,813 16.9%
1970 47,126,517 9,126,331 19.3%
1979 49,609,333 10,471,602 21.1%
1989 51,452,034 11,355,582 22.1%
2001 48,457,000 8,334,100 17.2%
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Ukraine

When I talked about the after WW2 Russification allowed by the West I mainly referred to areas such as the Baltics and the Eastern Poland. However the Russification of Crimea after the WW2 was the base for the war in Ukraine today.
The thing is, though, that Crimea and most of Ukraine was already under Soviet rule even before the start of World War II.

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Re: Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War I

#29

Post by Karelia » 14 Feb 2016, 18:40

Futurist wrote: The thing is, though, that Crimea and most of Ukraine was already under Soviet rule even before the start of World War II.
Yes. Perhaps I should have been clearer. Let me rephrase my thinking.

Russification of the newly occupied areas, such as the Baltics - approved by the West - created many problems, which still have many negative consequences today.

Russification and continued Russification of the existing soviet states - without Western approval - continued to create and increase many problems, which still have many negative consequences today - the war in Ukraine included.

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Re: Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War I

#30

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Feb 2016, 18:22

Hi Karelia,

The statistics do not show the number of Ukrainians in Russia. In the 1926 Soviet Census, not only were both Lugansk and Donetsk majority Ukrainian, but a couple of neighbouring areas of Russia were as well!

The USSR used the importation of Russian-speaking labour (including many non-Russian minorities for whom the Russian language was the common tongue) to new industrial regions such as the Ukraine's Donetsk Basin, as a means of homogenizing the USSR. The end of the USSR reversed that process, as your figures for Ukraine show.

I learnt this from a link put up by Peter K.:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... s_1926.jpg

Putin is engaged in trying to consolidate the USSR's demographic gains for Russia in neighbouring countries.

Cheers,

Sid.

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