Status of German POWs

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Adam Carr
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Status of German POWs

#1

Post by Adam Carr » 28 Jun 2009, 05:33

I found this photo in Gavin Mortimer's "The Longest Night: Voices from the London Blitz". It's captioned "Albert Hufenreuter (second from right) in a POW camp in Canada in 1943." What strikes me about the photo is that these POWs are in correct uniform, with insignia and decorations, even with creases in their trousers! This is in sharp contrast with the photos commonly seen of Allied POWs in German camps, who are dressed in rag-tag bits of uniform and whatever else they can find. This leads me to ask: how did the regime imposed on German POWs in Allied hands compare with that imposed in German camps? Was German military discipline retained? Were there parades, salutes, etc? Was expression of Nazi ideology allowed? Was the Nazi salute allowed? Were SS prisoners allowed to wear uniform and insignia? What happened to prisoners who broke with Nazi ideology and became anti-Hitler? Compared to the mountain of literature on Allied POWs, there seems to be very little on German POWs. Does anyone know anything about this topic, or know of anything published about it?
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Re: Status of German POWs

#2

Post by glenn239 » 28 Jun 2009, 16:36

The Admiral's Wolfpack contains some stories of German submariner POW's in North America (an attempted escape, a riot in a Canadian camp).


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Adam Carr
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Re: Status of German POWs

#3

Post by Adam Carr » 29 Jun 2009, 03:21

Canada seems to have been where the British sent most of their German POWs. (We in Australia got the Italians - most of them liked it so much they stayed.) Has much been published in Canada about this? Is there an official history?

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Re: Status of German POWs

#4

Post by garlock » 02 Aug 2009, 13:21

Adam,
I am just finishing up After the Reich, by Giles MacDonogh. Among other matters, he discusses the situation of German POWs under the various Allied powers. I was surprised at the brutal treatment the POWs received, even by the Western Allies. I think that war-time POW conditions in North America (and I guess Australia) were pretty good. However, post-war in Europe, the Allies used German POWs for slave labor, fed them on very low-calorie diets (purposely), robbed them, beat them, and held them for varying lengths of time beyond what might have been necessary. MacDonogh describes very raggedly dressed German POWs returning home.

Up to my reading of this book, I had just assumed that the POWs held in the East were treated poorly but that those held by the Western Allies were treated fairly humanely. This seems not to have been the case.

regards,
John

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Re: Status of German POWs

#5

Post by JamesL » 02 Aug 2009, 17:01

There are a number of threads dealing with German POW's in American custody.

A quick review of Amazon reveals several books.

Stalag, U.S.A: The remarkable story of German POWs in America by Judith M Gansberg
Hitler's Soldiers in the Sunshine State: German POWs in Florida by Robert D. Billinger Jr.
Nazi Prisoners of War in America by Arnold Krammer
Stark Decency: German Prisoners of War in a New England Village by Allen V. Koop
A German POW In New Mexico by Walter Schmid

The following link might be helpful.
The U.S. Army in the Occupation of Germany 1944-1946
http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/Occ-GY/

The German POWs I knew were treated very well by the Americans

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Re: Status of German POWs

#6

Post by garlock » 02 Aug 2009, 17:41

From my reading in MacDonogh, it seems that the hierarchy of treatment, from worst to best, in Europe and not North America, would have been:
Russia, France, Britain, and US. The minor allies and occupied countries presented a harsh picture as well. From my speaking with U.S. veterans and my reading (not much) up to now, I would have said that across the board the Americans were kind. That was not so, apparently.

I'm not being disputatious here. This was all new information to me.

regards,
John

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Re: Status of German POWs

#7

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 02 Aug 2009, 19:21

The book Prisoners of War in Time-Life Series on WWII devotes a chapter and photo essay on American camps (in the US) for German POWs during WWII. (BTW thanks JamesL for the book suggestions)
This leads me to ask: how did the regime imposed on German POWs in Allied hands compare with that imposed in German camps?
Overall the western Allies - specifically the Canadians, British and Americans - treated German POWs much much better than the Germans treated their equivalent POWs during the war.
Was German military discipline retained?
Yes.
Were there parades, salutes, etc?
Yes to some extent.

Was expression of Nazi ideology allowed? Was the Nazi salute allowed?
Depends on what you mean by "expressions of Nazi ideology." For example, yes the Nazi flag was allowed (it was the official flag of Germany, after all) and the Nazi salute was permitted as well. In the time life book I mentioned above there are pictures of two German POW funerals (they died presumably of natural causes in captivity) - in one the coffin is draped with a Nazi flag in a chapel during the memorial service and in the other the mourners are giving the Nazi salute at the grave site. The first photo was taken at the POW camp at Fort Custer, Michigan and the latter at St. Louis, Missouri.
Were SS prisoners allowed to wear uniform and insignia?
Don't know. Most SS POWs weren't captured in large numbers until mid 1944. Many weren't too eager to be captured in their uniforms either. Kurt "Panzer" Meyer (12th SS Panzer Division CO) was in disguise as a Wehrmacht trooper when he was captured.
What happened to prisoners who broke with Nazi ideology and became anti-Hitler?
Several of the POW camps in the US had pro and anti-Hitler factions which caused a lot of internal discord and even a few prisoner-on-prisoner murders.
I am just finishing up After the Reich, by Giles MacDonogh. Among other matters, he discusses the situation of German POWs under the various Allied powers. I was surprised at the brutal treatment the POWs received, even by the Western Allies. I think that war-time POW conditions in North America (and I guess Australia) were pretty good. However, post-war in Europe, the Allies used German POWs for slave labor, fed them on very low-calorie diets (purposely), robbed them, beat them, and held them for varying lengths of time beyond what might have been necessary. MacDonogh describes very raggedly dressed German POWs returning home.
Hi Garlock - having read MacDonough and cross-referenced his allegations with other sources, I'd say you'd have to take his allegations with a grain of salt. I think that many of his claims of mistreatment of German POWs are overstated, and he completely ignores the whole DP situtation (the Allies not only had to care for German POWs, but also millions of displaced persons - refugees, former Nazi slave workers, etc. plus is too willing to claims made by Bacque.

The topic has generated a lots of threads on AHF - there is a list of them at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &p=1143453

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Re: Status of German POWs

#8

Post by JamesL » 03 Aug 2009, 01:00

Here is another link which may be of interest. It deals with German POWs from the Afrika Korps who worked the farms and food canning plants outside of Fort Dix, New Jersey. Fort Dix housed 4,000 German POWs during the war.

WITHOUT HONOR: WAR ON THE HOME FRONT - The Untold Story of German P.O.W.'s In Bridgeton And Fairton During World War II by Earl L. McCormick
http://www.njpinelandsanddownjersey.com ... ent_id=202

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Re: Status of German POWs

#9

Post by Adam Carr » 03 Aug 2009, 06:44

Well! After a long period of silence I suddenly get a rush of comments on this thread, for which I'm grateful. I've read Giles McDonough's book and although it has lots of interesting stuff in it I'm a bit dubious about some of his claims. Anyway I'm not interested so much in post-surrender POWs as in the long-term POWs in Britain, Canada and the US. Thanks for the list of references, which I will pursue.
AC

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Re: Status of German POWs

#10

Post by bf109 emil » 03 Aug 2009, 07:35

In Canada a total of 137 German/Austrian POW died while in captivity, which IMHO seems rather small when over 40,000 where interned in Canada, with Lethbridge and Medicine Hat Alberta, each housing 12,000 POW's apiece.

"in 1971 all 137 POW were disinterred and removed to Woodlawn cemetery in Kitchener, Ontario at the request of the German War Graves authority." and a little know fact Kitchener Ontario was originally Named Berlin in the 1800's until 1916 when sentiment over the name in WW1 resulted in the name being changed from Berlin Canada to Kitchener after Earl Kitchener who died while a secretary of state for war of the United Kingdom

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Re: Status of German POWs

#11

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 04 Aug 2009, 18:34

I've read the autobiographys of three German soldiers, all who surrendered in 1945 and who remained in Germany as PoW. None of the three refer to any particualr mistreatment as PoW. That includes Knappe, a artillery officer who surrendered to the Soviet Army. Knappe described how the prisoners had adquate food and shelter and the work was not debilitating. However the many Germans who were convicted of "war crimes" were then treated as criminals and were removed from the PoW groups. Knappe was released after a year or more and transported back to Germany. The other two were released after just a few months to a sort of parole. One from Hamburg was given ration cupons in exchange for laboring on the demolition and clean up crews. Basically clearing the rubble in the bombed cities. After a few months of that he found work with a former employer making soap and detergent. The other was a Alsatian who returned to his farm town in France. In 1946 he was required to enlist in the French army to prove he was a good Frenchman. After a few more months of that he was released to the reserves and went home again.

Other historians such as Atkison do describe how the French soldiers in Algeria were extremely abiusive of the German prisoners they guarded while awaiting transit to North America.

In 1944 a truck transporting German PoW from a work site stopped by my grandfathers business office. One of the PoW had fallen ill & they were looking for a doctor. My grandfather translated until they departed. While the doctor was fetched the other PoWs milled about the street and used the coins they had to buy cold sodas from the grocery. I guess no one was concerned about them escaping into the cornfields of Indiana.

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Re: Status of German POWs

#12

Post by Adam Carr » 05 Aug 2009, 01:42

Carl, many of these camps were located in areas with a high proportion of people of German-American descent - such as yourself, I presume. Were there no security concerns about this? Were there any cases of German-Americans assisted German POWs to escape?

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Re: Status of German POWs

#13

Post by Optiow » 07 Aug 2009, 07:06

I think that the Allies treated POW's better because there were less escapes. All the allied POW's escaped a lot, but the Axis ones did not really have that urge very often. Therefore the prison guards were better to the POW's for being good.

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Re: Status of German POWs

#14

Post by the_historian » 09 Sep 2010, 16:55

PoWs in Britain were put on the same ration scale as the British military, which was actually higher than that "enjoyed" by the civilian population.
Not only that, but any who escaped were entitled to double rations to build them up after their exertions! That one only came out in the '50s when the official histories of the Ministry of Food were published.
NO PoWs were ever treated as 'slave labour' in Britain; either during or after the war. With regards to repatriation, German prisoners began to be repatriated in late 1946, with priority given to those with skills most urgently needed (miners etc). Many men were also repatriated early for compassionate reasons.
Immediate mass repatriation was never an option because the majority of British manpower was still in the services, and because there was no German government to negotiate with. The British government remained haunted by the spectre of manpower shortages well after the last PoW returned home.
The Nazi salute was never banned in British camps, and there is at least one example of the inmates of a camp in England being allowed to surrender the camp to the British commandant on VE Day.
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Gordon

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Re: Status of German POWs

#15

Post by bf109 emil » 10 Sep 2010, 10:29

When returning POW's from the Soviet union went back to Germany...for instance the soldiers from Stalingrad in IIRC 1955. Was their return to Germany the end or did these returning soldiers now have to reside in East Germany or where they free to leave and settle into West Germany if and had they wished?
PoWs in Britain were put on the same ration scale as the British military,
poor saps..hard tack, bully beef and tea...wonder after 5 years how many wondered if last bullet last man wasn't such a bad order afterall?

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