Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrendered?

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BillHermann
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Re: Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrende

#61

Post by BillHermann » 18 Jan 2012, 04:18

Tim Smith wrote:I wonder if it's true that Soviet soldiers did not loot German decorations, while British and American soldiers did. If it is true, I wonder why?

Maybe German decorations were not seen to be of any value in the USSR? Or perhaps hoarding looted German decorations was seen as evidence of political unreliability by the NKVD, so the soldiers may have been too scared to do it?

Or maybe taking souveneirs was not a part of Russian culture?
There is evidence of this, however many of your points regarding why it was not as prevalent are possibly true. There are many stories however in Berlin in 1945 of Soviets taking everything in flats including the kitchen sink. The other point is that not all Allied soldiers looted as well. It may have been more prevalent in one army over another but to say all mebers of one are guilty is untrue.

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Re: Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrende

#62

Post by wildrover » 24 Jan 2012, 16:02

I would just like to make a few comments about decorations being taken from German prisoners by Russian soldiers...

Last year i drove from my home in Poland to the lovely Ukrainian city of Kiev to meet with my Russian girlfriend...

Whilst there , i visited the museum of the great patriotic war , which is situated below the huge Motherland statue , its a great museum , and well worth a visit if you are in Kiev...

In one room , there is a huge swatika in the center , its made up from hundreds of German iron crosses.... Since its unlikely these were donated by German veterans , i am guessing that in the Kiev area at least , there were quite a few Russians keen on grabbing these as a trophy...

I have a picture of this display in the book i got from the museum , but unfortunatly its packed in a box , along with all my other stuff....I am heading off to Moscow to marry my Russian lady...


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Re: Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrende

#63

Post by redcoat » 24 Jan 2012, 21:32

Must be honest. Even if the taking of medal off soldiers who have surrendered is a war crime, its not one that I'm really going to get upset about.
Lets be honest if you had just been taken prisoner and the worst thing that happened to you was they took a medal which you had been arrogant enough to take into battle, you would really have to be a pompass S.O.B. to winge about it. :P

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Re: Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrende

#64

Post by BillHermann » 24 Jan 2012, 21:40

redcoat wrote:Must be honest. Even if the taking of medal off soldiers who have surrendered is a war crime, its not one that I'm really going to get upset about.
Lets be honest if you had just been taken prisoner and the worst thing that happened to you was they took a medal which you had been arrogant enough to take into battle, you would really have to be a pompass S.O.B. to winge about it. :P
Agreed in so many ways however it is part of some past military cultures to do so. What I find interesting though is that some feel that it is the worst crime and insult. As I said most Germans who had a medal pinched would have been happily to be alive.

It is only the contemporary amateur historian that would feel a great emotional impact on this or a passionate nationalist.

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Heinze
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Re: Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrende

#65

Post by Heinze » 25 Jan 2012, 06:17

I can almost be sure most german soldiers surrendering to the enemy just wanted the war to end, and go back to their homes, families etc and a war medal or two lost is the last of their concerns.

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Re: Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrende

#66

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 26 Jan 2012, 12:19

Well, for a german soldier it was unbelieveable to have such a lack of respect for the enemy soldier by taking away his decorations.

Well, but I think it took the german soldiers harder to see that it was normal for enemy forces to loot all personal belongings including their equipment.

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Re: Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrende

#67

Post by redcoat » 26 Jan 2012, 14:01

Jan-Hendrik wrote:Well, for a german soldier it was unbelievable to have such a lack of respect for the enemy soldier by taking away his decorations.
I'm sure the nearly 3 million Soviet prisoners who were murdered by the German Army through ill-treatment and neglect would have been horrified to have been told of their German counterparts losing their medals this way :x

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Re: Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrende

#68

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 26 Jan 2012, 14:29

There is an interesting discussion on this topic here in H&W section :wink:

This might change your point of a bit, especially when it cames to numbers and murders :idea:

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Re: Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrende

#69

Post by BillHermann » 27 Jan 2012, 05:38

I always find these discussions interesting because personal bias always comes into play. Tipically when emotions come into play and personal expiriances objective thinking goes out the door.

I too had family that had things taken from them. My relitives had thier personal belonging looted by the Germans. Special family air looms including militatia and medals but I don't generalize and get into a tizzy comparing it to a larger crime. I am sad that these items were stolen however I accept this Asa sad tragedy of life and war.

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Re: Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrende

#70

Post by Heinze » 27 Jan 2012, 06:38

I can assure you, I had three relatives who served in the wehrmacht, and they had everything taken from them, including their rank and uniforms, and all they cared about was where their next meal was coming from, their security and finding out if their families back home were still alive. The last thing on their minds were the looted military items. Most Germans were fed up with Nazism and were just happy to see the end of the war.

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Re: Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrende

#71

Post by UMachine » 28 Jan 2012, 05:52

Tim Smith wrote:I wonder if it's true that Soviet soldiers did not loot German decorations, while British and American soldiers did. If it is true, I wonder why?

Maybe German decorations were not seen to be of any value in the USSR? Or perhaps hoarding looted German decorations was seen as evidence of political unreliability by the NKVD, so the soldiers may have been too scared to do it?

Or maybe taking souveneirs was not a part of Russian culture?

I would think that by the time Soviets were able to be viewed by the Allies they already had more than their fill of decorations?

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Re: Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrende

#72

Post by ReinhardH » 31 Jan 2012, 11:58

And Ivan said, "So viele Frauen, und kein Mann" is what I would like to have stamped onto the back of every one of MY war decorations! :wink:

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Re: Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrende

#73

Post by bigger_chief » 04 Feb 2012, 02:50

I remember seeing a "code of conduct" for German soldiers which specifically stated as item 8 or 9 that decorations and awards were not to be taken from prisoners.
I looked and looked but could not find a copy.

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Re: Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrende

#74

Post by BillHermann » 04 Feb 2012, 04:25

bigger_chief wrote:I remember seeing a "code of conduct" for German soldiers which specifically stated as item 8 or 9 that decorations and awards were not to be taken from prisoners.
I looked and looked but could not find a copy.
That may or may not be true however we all know that these types of codes were often overlooked or ignored. Being a former soldier myself I can cite hundreds of examples of where code of conduct, laws and rules were broken.

I have talked to veterans on both sides that often laugh when they talk about things that they did from wearing gloves that their wife made to driving drunk. Even stories of field modifications or the direct disobeying of orders with fraternization or looting of civilians. Codes of conduct may be there but they do not stop the individuals will to be bad.

A perfect example was the code of conduct and rules for concentration camp guards. They were not to fraternized or steal from inmates as it was state property. That's why guards ended up at the front, demoted or jailed because the broke the rules and codes of conduct.

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Re: Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrende

#75

Post by Larry D. » 04 Feb 2012, 15:21

Two thumbs up on most of your comments, Bill H. For those of us who have been in uniform and been in war, in my case, Vietnam, the comments above by those who are generations younger and who have never been under fire and lost comrades (or "buddies" if you happen to be an old G.I. like me), appear naive and even humorous. An enemy soldier captured in battle at the front could consider himself very fortunate to be taken prisoner as opposed to being killed in the fighting or shot on the spot by their opposite numbers who had just lost some of their close friends in battle.

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