After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation

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After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation

#1

Post by Haven » 28 Sep 2015, 02:07

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After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation
Giles MacDonogh
(New York: Basic Books, 2007)
618 pages.
UCSB: DD257 .M22 2007

On Line Version:
https://archive.org/details/AfterTheRei ... Occupation

PDF Version:
https://ia801900.us.archive.org/8/items ... pation.pdf

BOOK REVIEWS

Retribution and Reconciliation

In the preface to this book, Giles MacDonogh makes the following observation: "If children are included in collective guilt, this could be accepted on the basis that they were going to grow up to be Germans and therefore possibly Nazis" (p. xiv). With this statement, he raises the troubling moral quandary of Allied behavior in a debilitated Germany after organized resistance crumbled in 1945. From MacDonogh's view, the crimes of the National Socialist regime did not justify the brutalization of the German civilian population, mainly because "it was not the criminals who were raped, starved, tortured or bludgeoned to death but women, children and old men" (p. xiii). To make his case, MacDonogh has waded through multiple first-hand accounts to reconstruct a portrait of incessant despair and injustice, meted out by an alliance of the willing to a population of unarmed, defenseless civilians. Although MacDonogh's narrative gives the reader a fascinating picture of a chaotic and incredibly violent time in world history, he leaves many archival stones unturned. Compounding his methodological shortcomings, MacDonogh fails to differentiate his judgment as a historian from the often overtly racist views espoused by an indignant deposed German nobility, furious with the intemperate louts wreaking havoc on the estates of eastern Germany. In every instance, according to MacDonogh, Allied troops stood by while ignorant riff-raff wreaked a misguided revenge on innocent German civilians who themselves had been victims of Nazi intimidation, Allied bombing, and now postwar reprisals.

Link: https://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=25814

The Squall After the Whirlwind

There's a gruesome last chapter to World War II, the bloodiest war in history. During the forced expulsions of about 12 million Germans from the Reich's eastern provinces, mostly from territory that became part of the newly reconstituted states of Poland and Czechoslovakia, about 2 million died. Imprisonment in former Nazi concentration camps, death marches, starvation, beatings, rapes and outright murder were all commonplace. As the Red Army and many local inhabitants saw it, this was justifiable revenge for Germany's monstrous crimes. The Americans, Brits and French didn't engage in violence on anything close to that scale, but they, too, sometimes let their desire for revenge get the better of them.

For a long time, this record of retribution was a taboo topic outside of Germany. Even the Germans worried that emphasizing their suffering could open them to accusations of rewriting history to cast themselves as equal victims. But since the collapse of communist regimes in their countries in 1989, at least some Poles and Czechs have been confronting that history. (Don't expect anything of the sort from Putin's Russia, where Stalin is glorified once again.) And in the West, this is a painful subject that has been attracting more attention.

Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01769.html

After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation (review)

In After the Reich, Giles MacDonogh intends to "reframe" the history of World War II and its aftermath. Drawing on what he calls "records of brutality" that he believes other historians have either overlooked or simply ignored, MacDonogh writes that his book gives a "shocking account" of the sufferings of tens of millions of Germans and Austrians who barely survived a massive and brutal occupation. In the title MacDonogh promises readers a "brutal history." He keeps that promise in more ways than one.

Link: https://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&type= ... adams.html

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Re: After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation

#2

Post by Poot » 29 Sep 2015, 00:11

Here we go again.
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Re: After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation

#3

Post by OpanaPointer » 29 Sep 2015, 01:30

Poot wrote:Here we go again.
Ever wonder why the Germans are so stupid that they did not report all this at the time? :roll:
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Re: After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation

#4

Post by Poot » 29 Sep 2015, 03:58

My own bet is this will not last 10 posts before this thread is locked.
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Re: After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation

#5

Post by seaburn » 29 Sep 2015, 14:03

Poot wrote:My own bet is this will not last 10 posts before this thread is locked.
With due respect 'Poot' you have tried to ensure that happens with your 'here we go again' post. Is this topic never to be discussed or dissected without a ruck ensuing? Perhaps you are alluding to the fact that those from the 'dark side' bring up these allegations to counterweight what the Nazi's did ?

I don't get their argument frankly, What the Nazi's did to the Jews and the people in the occupied territories was criminal in my opinion but I'm not willing to ignore or turn a blind eye to the suffering of the German population in those turbulent post war years. Discussing this subject openly and unemotionally should be permissible in order to ensure that the historic facts are recorded correctly IMO.

This thread will not be locked if people only discuss the merits of writing this book. As for a discussion on what's between its pages, I suspect that would better be conducted on the 'Holocaust and war crimes' thread.

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Re: After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation

#6

Post by Poot » 29 Sep 2015, 19:57

Seaburn,
Relax, Brother.
Don't read too much into my very brief comment. I was referencing only the inevitable and contentious back-and-forth that's to be expected with such a well-trodden but raw nerved topic. I'm not trying to silence discussion or variant opinions, just saying, "Uh, here it comes..."

Pat
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Re: After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation

#7

Post by seaburn » 29 Sep 2015, 20:03

Appreciate you clarifying that Pat - just wish it could be discussed with less contention....but I understand you point.

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Re: After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation

#8

Post by Poot » 29 Sep 2015, 20:48

Agreed, Sir. Several generations from now it will no doubt be approached with far more emotional distance and less historical baggage.

Best,
Pat
Last edited by Poot on 30 Sep 2015, 03:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation

#9

Post by Haven » 30 Sep 2015, 02:59

My intention wasn’t to provoke. Maybe…explore?

I’ve been teaching my son about war in general, and WW2 specifically. And I didn’t want to fall into the trap my father taught me, that “war makes men” and that “the Allies were saints.” War destroys men and the Allies didn’t need to be Saints. But that devious self-righteousness that nationalistic impulses can produce, makes for a very skewed view of war and creates Saints when we don’t need them.


Anyway, it seems the controversy surrounding After the Reich, is his lack of context. That is he doesn’t spend enough time describing the horrors perpetrated by the Axis, according to this line of thought. I don't agree with that sentiment.

I think it’s an intense indictment against collective punishment.

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