Was it a mistake for the victorious Allies to expel millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War II?

[Futurist]

Also, please keep in mind that the massive post-World War II territorial losses which Germany endured in real life almost certainly wouldn't have been either realistic or sustainable if the millions of ethnic Germans living in these territories *wouldn't* have been expelled en masse beforehand.

[Karelia]

Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity. Committing crimes (against innocents) to revenge prevous crimes (to different innocents) does/did not make any sense.

The (e.g.) German border changes in excess of the border losses of 1919 were only sings of the naivity, lack of common sense - not to mention the lack of moral integrity - of the Western Allies. Huge mistake.

[wm]

When did the earlier expulsions of ethnic Germans happen if I may ask? The Nazis evacuated lots of people and many fled on their own but those Germans were returning to their own homes after the war. And many did return.
In Poland, after the war Germans and Poles lived together in the so called recovered territories for months and years.

After my family was expelled from their home (which was theirs for over four hundred years) by the victorious Allies they lived together on the same property with a German family, its rightful owners, for over a year.
And when that German family was finally expelled by the victorious Allies both families actually parted as friends.

[steverodgers801]

One of the issues that started WW2 was that millions of people were in other countries. The allies didn't want that excuse again. The two main were Poland and Czechoslovakia had lots of Germans in their borders, which gave Hitler a justification for war

[wm]

Well, where there's a will, there's a way. Justifications are a dime a dozen. He would find another one.

[Karelia]

Well, where there's a will, there's a way. Justifications are a dime a dozen. He would find another one.

Exactly!

[wm]

Basically there was only one reason for the expulsions - to accommodate Stalin's greed for new territories.

Early in war the Polish Government asked for some territorial compensation (but not expulsions, they were naively considered barbarous) but was told it wasn't good time, get back after the war Gentlemen, i.e. maybe never.

Similarly, as late as 1942 the Munich Agreement was considered valid and in force. All the annexed by the Germans territories were still theirs. Only after the Lidice massacre (another Hitler's stupid mistake) Churchill got imprudently mad and repudiated the agreement.

Stalin wanted so much Polish, German, Czechoslovak territories for himself that Poland and Czechoslovakia had to be moved West, deep into the German territory.

[Sid Guttridge]

If the expulsions had not taken place, the sore of resentful German minorities that had triggered the war would not have been expunged. All the countries concerned benefited from the consolidation of their core identity as nation states.

Furthermore, if there had been no territorial losses, Germany would have suffered no territorial punishment for initiating the war, or for the way it had conducted it. The expelled Germans carried the can for all Germans.

Sid.

[Jan-Hendrik]

Nope, the carried the can for all the mistakes done in Versailles , St.Germain and Trianon 1919...which caused a continuous destabilisation of the whole Eastern Europe sphere...ending up in WW2.

Jan-Hendrik

[Sheldrake]

Whoa, what is the topic here? The OP referred to expulsions post WW2, but half way down the topic has changed to WW1. As far as I know the "victorious allies" played no part in any expulsions after WW1. The principle of self determination encouraged the formation of nation states in areas which had historically had a mixture of peoples. But which wasn't enforced by any victorious ally, except the Greeks who invaded Turkey.

It wasn't the victorious allies who were expelling Germans from eastern Europe in WW2. The British, French and Germans played little part in the expulsions and would have been very happy if they had not taken place. The waves of displaced people into the Western Allies occupied zones was comparable in scale to the current day refugee crisis from Syria and Libya.

Nor was it just Germans who were cleansed. Many of the migrating population were non Germans who would rather have not gone back to soviet or communist regimes. The Western allies were complicit in sending many of these back to their deaths or ill treatment.

Many Czechs and Poles were happy to take revenge on Germans who had been complicit in treating them as sub human. There wasn't much sympathy for the Germans who had started the war in the cause of lebensraum.

[wm]

It wasn't the victorious allies who were expelling Germans from eastern Europe in WW2.

Protocol of the Proceedings, August l, 1945
The Berlin Conference of the Three Heads of Government of the U.S.S.R., U.S.A., and U.K., which took place from July 17 to August 2, 1945, came to the following conclusions:
[..]
The Three Governments, having considered the question in all its aspects, recognize that the transfer to Germany of German populations, or elements thereof, remaining in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary, will have to be undertaken. They agree that any transfers that take place should be effected in an orderly and humane manner.

[wm]

Furthermore, if there had been no territorial losses, Germany would have suffered no territorial punishment for initiating the war, or for the way it had conducted it. The expelled Germans carried the can for all Germans.

Please consider this:

Art. 50.
No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be inflicted upon the population on account of the acts of individuals for which they cannot be regarded as jointly and severally responsible.
Laws and Customs of War on Land (Hague IV); October 18, 1907

The Moscow Declarations of 1943 and the Potsdam Conference didn't mention any territorial punishments, only that German officers and men and members of the Nazi party who have been responsible for or have taken a consenting part in the [...] atrocities, massacres and executions [...] would be punished.
The Potsdam Conference ordered the transfers but didn't justify them as punishment.

[Karelia]

Thanks wm and Jan-Hendrik for your accurate posts!

[Sheldrake]

It wasn't the victorious allies who were expelling Germans from eastern Europe in WW2.

Protocol of the Proceedings, August l, 1945
The Berlin Conference of the Three Heads of Government of the U.S.S.R., U.S.A., and U.K., which took place from July 17 to August 2, 1945, came to the following conclusions:
[..]
The Three Governments, having considered the question in all its aspects, recognize that the transfer to Germany of German populations, or elements thereof, remaining in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary, will have to be undertaken. They agree that any transfers that take place should be effected in an orderly and humane manner.

That reads more as an acceptance of inevitability than a desire to initiate the process. The EU states are currently trying to agree a process for the orderly and humane treatment of millions of refugees that have been the inevitable consequences of the Syrian civil War. That does not mean that the European states have been expelling the refugees.

You are correct that the western allies were complicit and went along with events that took place in Russian controlled territory. (Statements that might also be said to be true of the current refugee crisis)

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Jan-Hendrik,

Mistakes at Versailles? Surely Germany got off quite lightly. Its territory was never fought over, it lost "only" territories with non-German majorities (amounting to about 12% of its area) and "only" had to pay indemnities exactly as France fully did after 1870.

Cheers,

Sid.