Are Austrians Germans?

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
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Jimmyson
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Are Austrians Germans?

#1

Post by Jimmyson » 27 Jun 2011, 19:03

I've had this crop up quite a few times and I'm not sure what to think of it because after reading into it, I find myself agreeing that Austrians are Germans.

Simply because the first Reich the HRE (Holy Roman Empire of the German nation) lasted until 1806 which Austria was not seen as just part of but as the leader of "Germany" primarily by the Habsburgs then following this dissolving after the Napoleonic wars you seen the Congress of Vienna, and as everyone knows Vienna is in Austria make the German confederation which was all independent German states like Bavaria, Prussia and so on make a unified Germany but in 1866 you seen Prussia defeat Austria as the top German state and excluded Austria out of the German Empire in 1871 and following the end of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1918 the "Republic of German Austria" was created and declared itself a part of the new-German Republic but the political union was forbid and this was even before the Third Reich or Nazis existed.

In 1938 according to most sources it virtually everyone in Austria wanting the Anschluss and the votes and historical footage, books and documents show this and when Hitler went into his native country he was seen as like a Messiah and was full of cheers, salutes and tears from peoples eyes and the dream had came true Greater Germany briefly existing until the end of WW2.

The official language of Austria is German.

You get many people saying Hitler wasn't German as he was born in Austria but he surely was ethnically German?

Are Austrians considered ethnic Germans considering to that if Austria had defeated Prussia it would be Austria now currently ruling Germany and German lands.

Jimmyson
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Re: Der Anschluss

#2

Post by Jimmyson » 27 Jun 2011, 19:14

The union for Austria to politically join Germany had been around before the Nazis had became in power of Germany.

In 1918 the official name of Austria was The Republic of German Austria - do you need anymore evidence to show that support and it was wanted, infact until 1945 most Austrians considered themselves Germans.


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Simperator
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Re: Are Austrians Germans?

#3

Post by Simperator » 27 Jun 2011, 22:00

Hi,

I think this is difficult to answer, as seldom in the world "nation equals language equals people". For example, I'm Swiss and speak German too, not the standard German (Austrians don't, too), but a German idiom, but I'm certainly not German.

Hitler did see himself as German, in "Mein Kampf" he writes about it all the time. Besides, in WW1 and after, the Austrians in Austria-Hungary described themselves as "Deutschösterreicher", to show they were German-speaking (not like, for example, the Czechs or other peoples in the state):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Austria

But I think today, the Austrians have somehow lost the appetite to describe themselves as German... :D

I think also that we must imagine that back then, Austria hasn't existed in the form of today, so no Austro-German tradition of self-governing was established. The definition was more about areas and families (such as the Habsburgers). Another tie to the Swiss, if I may: the Habsburg castle is in Switzerland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habsburg_Castle

So, we can definately see a lot of connections between the German-speaking peoples originating in the medieval world, which was not ethnically defined.

Regards,
Simon

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Re: Are Austrians Germans?

#4

Post by grassi » 27 Jun 2011, 22:59

Well, Ernest Renan has contemplated about nationhood.
Language isn't the point, race or religion either.
It's worth reading his essay.
Definition of nationhood
Renan's definition of a nation has been influential. This was given in his 1882 discourse Qu'est-ce qu'une nation? ("What is a Nation?"). Whereas German writers like Fichte had defined the nation by objective criteria such as a race or an ethnic group "sharing common characteristics" (language, etc.), Renan defined it by the desire of a people to live together, which he summarized by a famous phrase, "avoir fait de grandes choses ensemble, vouloir en faire encore" (having done great things together and wishing to do more). Writing in the midst of the dispute concerning the Alsace-Lorraine region, he declared that the existence of a nation was based on a "daily plebiscite."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Renan

What is a Nation?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_is_a_Nation%3F

Best regards


grassi

Jimmyson
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Re: Are Austrians Germans?

#5

Post by Jimmyson » 27 Jun 2011, 23:09

I know besides 1938-1945 that Austrians and Germans are different nationalities.

But do you agree the Austrians are ethnic Germans?

I know alot of Austrians now won't label themselves as Germans because of WW2/Nazism but it doesn't ever change ethnicity.

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Grisu
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Re: Der Anschluss

#6

Post by Grisu » 27 Jun 2011, 23:16

Jimmyson wrote:The union for Austria to politically join Germany had been around before the Nazis had became in power of Germany.

In 1918 the official name of Austria was The Republic of German Austria - do you need anymore evidence to show that support and it was wanted, infact until 1945 most Austrians considered themselves Germans.
May I ask you to provide a source for the claim that most Austrians considered themselves German until 1945? And what did this feeling of being "German" imply?

Jimmyson
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Re: Der Anschluss

#7

Post by Jimmyson » 28 Jun 2011, 00:27

Grisu wrote:
Jimmyson wrote:The union for Austria to politically join Germany had been around before the Nazis had became in power of Germany.

In 1918 the official name of Austria was The Republic of German Austria - do you need anymore evidence to show that support and it was wanted, infact until 1945 most Austrians considered themselves Germans.
May I ask you to provide a source for the claim that most Austrians considered themselves German until 1945? And what did this feeling of being "German" imply?
Sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrians

http://gratzfeld.twoday.net/topics/Austrian+Identity/

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~oaces/conference ... Thorpe.pdf

http://www.aspr.ac.at/epu/research/matsuoka.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_Ger ... ne_nations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans#Twentieth_century

http://derstandard.at/3261105

http://www.photoglobe.info/ebooks/austr ... _0070.html

There you go, enough? :)

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Robert Rojas
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RE: What Are Bavarians - Germans Or Austrians?

#8

Post by Robert Rojas » 28 Jun 2011, 01:46

Greetings to both citizen Jimmyson and the community as a whole. Well sir, in light of your introductory posting of Monday - June 27, 2011 - 6:03pm, old Uncle Bob will refrain from interjecting any social commentary on the issue of Germanic identity of the fine burghers of the Eastern Empire - at least for the time being anyway. Old yours truly would think it best to allow the forum's Austrian constituency to offer their varying perspectives on this controversial topic BEFORE all of the forum's disparate auslanders begin chiming in on this Teutonic subject. On an incidental matter, have you ever given the very same thought regarding Canadians vis-a-vis Americans? NOW THAT WOULD REALLY BE INTERESTING! Well, that's my initial two Yankee cents worth on this out of the ordinary topic of interest - for now anyway. In anycase, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day no matter where you just might happen to find yourself on Terra Firma.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :) :D :lol: :wink: 8-)
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

Jimmyson
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Re: RE: What Are Bavarians - Germans Or Austrians?

#9

Post by Jimmyson » 28 Jun 2011, 02:46

Robert Rojas wrote:Greetings to both citizen Jimmyson and the community as a whole. Well sir, in light of your introductory posting of Monday - June 27, 2011 - 6:03pm, old Uncle Bob will refrain from interjecting any social commentary on the issue of Germanic identity of the fine burghers of the Eastern Empire - at least for the time being anyway. Old yours truly would think it best to allow the forum's Austrian constituency to offer their varying perspectives on this controversial topic BEFORE all of the forum's disparate auslanders begin chiming in on this Teutonic subject. On an incidental matter, have you ever given the very same thought regarding Canadians vis-a-vis Americans? NOW THAT WOULD REALLY BE INTERESTING! Well, that's my initial two Yankee cents worth on this out of the ordinary topic of interest - for now anyway. In anycase, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day no matter where you just might happen to find yourself on Terra Firma.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :) :D :lol: :wink: 8-)
Both Austrians and Bavarians are Germanic and ethnic Germans, Bavarians are also by nationality German.

Canadians and Americans are both Americans by being part of the Americas continent but separate nationalities.

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Annelie
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Re: Are Austrians Germans?

#10

Post by Annelie » 28 Jun 2011, 12:24

Canadians and Americans are both Americans by being part of the Americas continent but separate nationalities.
Wrong.



History
The first inhabitants of Canada were native Indian peoples, primarily the Inuit (Eskimo). The Norse explorer Leif Eriksson probably reached the shores of Canada (Labrador or Nova Scotia) in 1000, but the history of the white man in the country actually began in 1497, when John Cabot, an Italian in the service of Henry VII of England, reached Newfoundland or Nova Scotia. Canada was taken for France in 1534 by Jacques Cartier. The actual settlement of New France, as it was then called, began in 1604 at Port Royal in what is now Nova Scotia; in 1608, Quebec was founded. France's colonization efforts were not very successful, but French explorers by the end of the 17th century had penetrated beyond the Great Lakes to the western prairies and south along the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico. Meanwhile, the English Hudson's Bay Company had been established in 1670. Because of the valuable fisheries and fur trade, a conflict developed between the French and English; in 1713, Newfoundland, Hudson Bay, and Nova Scotia (Acadia) were lost to England. During the Seven Years' War (1756–1763), England extended its conquest, and the British general James Wolfe won his famous victory over Gen. Louis Montcalm outside Quebec on Sept. 13, 1759. The Treaty of Paris in 1763 gave England control.




http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107386.html


Never has Canada or Canadians thought or acknowledged themselves "Americans"
It would be like saying Scots are Englanders because of being neighbours.

golz
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Re: Are Austrians Germans?

#11

Post by golz » 28 Jun 2011, 13:34

They are certainly etnic germans. Nobody should have doubts about that. 8O

Jimmyson
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Re: Are Austrians Germans?

#12

Post by Jimmyson » 28 Jun 2011, 15:50

Annelie wrote:
Canadians and Americans are both Americans by being part of the Americas continent but separate nationalities.
Wrong.



History
The first inhabitants of Canada were native Indian peoples, primarily the Inuit (Eskimo). The Norse explorer Leif Eriksson probably reached the shores of Canada (Labrador or Nova Scotia) in 1000, but the history of the white man in the country actually began in 1497, when John Cabot, an Italian in the service of Henry VII of England, reached Newfoundland or Nova Scotia. Canada was taken for France in 1534 by Jacques Cartier. The actual settlement of New France, as it was then called, began in 1604 at Port Royal in what is now Nova Scotia; in 1608, Quebec was founded. France's colonization efforts were not very successful, but French explorers by the end of the 17th century had penetrated beyond the Great Lakes to the western prairies and south along the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico. Meanwhile, the English Hudson's Bay Company had been established in 1670. Because of the valuable fisheries and fur trade, a conflict developed between the French and English; in 1713, Newfoundland, Hudson Bay, and Nova Scotia (Acadia) were lost to England. During the Seven Years' War (1756–1763), England extended its conquest, and the British general James Wolfe won his famous victory over Gen. Louis Montcalm outside Quebec on Sept. 13, 1759. The Treaty of Paris in 1763 gave England control.




http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107386.html


Never has Canada or Canadians thought or acknowledged themselves "Americans"
It would be like saying Scots are Englanders because of being neighbours.
Canadians are North Americans.

Jimmyson
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Re: Are Austrians Germans?

#13

Post by Jimmyson » 28 Jun 2011, 15:51

golz wrote:They are certainly etnic germans. Nobody should have doubts about that. 8O
So from an ethnic point view you would say Hitler was German? Yes?

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LWD
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Re: RE: What Are Bavarians - Germans Or Austrians?

#14

Post by LWD » 28 Jun 2011, 16:06

Jimmyson wrote:Both Austrians and Bavarians are Germanic and ethnic Germans, Bavarians are also by nationality German.....
Not quite right. Some Austrians were ethnic Germans and some were German speakers. There is not a 100% overlap in those two groups and there were obviously some Austrians who weren't ethnic Germans.

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LWD
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Re: Are Austrians Germans?

#15

Post by LWD » 28 Jun 2011, 16:17

Annelie wrote:
Canadians and Americans are both Americans by being part of the Americas continent but separate nationalities.
Wrong.
Actually I think he's sort of right in this case.
... Never has Canada or Canadians thought or acknowledged themselves "Americans"
It would be like saying Scots are Englanders because of being neighbours.
Or it could be viewed as like saying Scots and Englanders are both British. The problem is that the contnent that the US, Canada, and several more conturies share is one of the American continents. That said I don't think there has been wide spread use of the term "American" to refer to those other than the inhabetents of the USA. Prior to the revolution however I believe that Canada was considered in the term "the American colonies" the Carribean ones may also have been.

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