Are Austrians Germans?

[Inselaffe]

Perhaps we need a new definition to answer this. Germans and Austrians speak versions of the same language, they have strong cultural similarities though clearly there are also many differences. They (or at least some of them) have been part of the same state in the past on more than one occasion.

However, this does not make them the same and quite obviously as the debate here shows they don't see themselves as the same.

And all over its history, "Germany" (or "area where german speaking people live") was not a centralistic block (although Hohenzollern Kaisers and Hitler claimed this), it was always a "family" of language and cultur with a lot of plurialisties. Germans (citizens of FRG), Austrian, german speaking Swiss etc. belong to the same group of language and culture, but they made their own political ways, have their specific regional history and have their own varity of culture.

I agree completely. But there are common bonds of language and culture, Vienna may not be Berlin or even Munich but it's a lot less like London or Madrid. But we don't seem to have a comfortable, functioning term for this entity. We can say Scandinavian and understand we mean a group of nations (there might be a bit of arguement over some of them!) who are linked culturally and linguistically , who have a shared past but who are nonetheless seperate places with their own traditions.

Some of the common terms we might use for a 'German' equivalent are now unsatisfactory due to the taint they acquired in the NS period. Maybe we could look back further...Germania Magna anyone?

[Jimmyson]

Dear Jimmyson,

Simply, Austrians are Austrians.

I think there aren't peoples, but only different cultures that develope as the individual personality in a young man.

So, at the Babenberg's times, probably there weren't significant differences between the culture of the inhabitants of the "Ostmark" and the culture of the other German groups (in particular Bavarians), but over the centuries, for the geographical position of this Alpine region placed in the heart of the Europe and for many historical conditions, this people developed then an autonomous culture different from the German thanks to the large Mediterranean and Mitteleuropean cultural influences: in this way, the Austrian culture was born.

About Hitler, when he was young he hated the cosmopolitan atmosphere of Wien, because he didn't understand the Austrian culture historically founded upon principles of tollerance.

About Mozart, he was principally a son of the age of the Enlightenment, but also (and incontestably) an illoustrious son of the original Austrian culture.

Ciao

Nobody denies that Austrians are Austrians in the nationality sense as Austria is separate from Germany, but they are ethnically German, thus Austrians are ethnic Germans - therefore German.

You seem to be missing my point this whole Austrians are not Germans is a post 1945 thing, if Austria had won Prussia in 1866 and led the German Empire in 1871 as opposed to Prussia, would you be arguing today that Prussians are not Germans?

[Valerio]

Dear Jimmyson,

Simply, Austrians are Austrians.

I think there aren't peoples, but only different cultures that develope as the individual personality in a young man.

So, at the Babenberg's times, probably there weren't significant differences between the culture of the inhabitants of the "Ostmark" and the culture of the other German groups (in particular Bavarians), but over the centuries, for the geographical position of this Alpine region placed in the heart of the Europe and for many historical conditions, this people developed then an autonomous culture different from the German thanks to the large Mediterranean and Mitteleuropean cultural influences: in this way, the Austrian culture was born.

Nobody denies that Austrians are Austrians in the nationality sense as Austria is separate from Germany, but they are ethnically German, thus Austrians are ethnic Germans - therefore German.

You seem to be missing my point this whole Austrians are not Germans is a post 1945 thing, if Austria had won Prussia in 1866 and led the German Empire in 1871 as opposed to Prussia, would you be arguing today that Prussians are not Germans?

Hi, Jimmyson!
I'm not talking over "recent" political events since 1866, but I'm underlining the autonomous culture and mentality (influenced from Mediterranean & Mitteleuropean components) historically developed in Austria over the centuries.
Austrians had an original Austrian culture and a particular Austrian mentality decidedly different from the German.

[Hecht]

Hi, Jimmyson!
I'm not talking over "recent" political events since 1866, but I'm underlining the autonomous culture and mentality (influenced from Mediterranean & Mitteleuropean components) historically developed in Austria over the centuries.
Austrians had an original Austrian culture and a particular Austrian mentality decidedly different from the German.

Is this some sort of joke?
Do me a favor.
Nationality is something very different nowadays, but back just to 50 years ago that was a pretty serious thing.
Austrians are Ethnic Germans, some of them couldn't feel as German Nationals because they have huge problems dealing with theirs nazi past, but they still are Ethnic Germans.
Anybody with even a bit of common sense would tell you the same.
Original Austrian culture??
What are you talking about?
Austria was the forefather of Germany, long way back from the times of Neustria\Austria, the Longobards, the Black and the Gold, the Holy Empire: Austria, and the Hapsburg, were, actually, the only and real "Germany".

[ManfredV]

Austria was the forefather of Germany, long way back from the times of Neustria\Austria, the Longobards, the Black and the Gold, the Holy Empire: Austria, and the Hapsburg, were, actually, the only and real "Germany".

???
And: Habsburg, not Hapsburg!

[history1]

[...]
Austrians are Ethnic Germans, some of them couldn't feel as German Nationals because they have huge problems dealing with theirs nazi past, but they still are Ethnic Germans.
Anybody with even a bit of common sense would tell you the same.
[...]

I think you forgot that 100 000´s of Austria´s inhabitants in the last century and their descendants came from the former crown lands to Austria. Countries like former Yugoslavia, Hungaria, Czech and Slovakia, Poland, Ukraine.....

And you are calling Austrians now Ethnic Germans?! How wrong.
Read e.g. about Burgenland Croats: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgenland_Croats#History

or take a look in Vienna´s address books from 1859 till 1942 and wonder how many last names are not german: http://www.digital.wienbibliothek.at/pe ... cture/5311

[ManfredV]

What is "German"? There is no german race or blood. Germans always ment (before chauvinist nonsene grew up in 19th century): speaking german language and having german culture. Of course most Austrians belong to german ethnic and culture. Of course Austria has it´s special varities as all german and german speaking regions have. And Austria is politically a nation which doesn´t belong any more to a German state, no doubt. Austrians are Austrians , but also part of german ethnic familiy. Especially since 1945 they found their own austrian consience.
Germans (or german etnic people) are a mixture of germanic, slavonic, celtic but also a lots of other roots.
Look at address books of every german town...
We don´t need neither german nor austrian chauvinism.
To claim only "Austrians are Germans" is too simple and wrong. But this kind of austrian chauvinism to deny is ridicolous.

[Valerio]

Hi, Jimmyson!
I'm not talking over "recent" political events since 1866, but I'm underlining the autonomous culture and mentality (influenced from Mediterranean & Mitteleuropean components) historically developed in Austria over the centuries.
Austrians had an original Austrian culture and a particular Austrian mentality decidedly different from the German.

Is this some sort of joke?
Do me a favor.
Nationality is something very different nowadays, but back just to 50 years ago that was a pretty serious thing.
Austrians are Ethnic Germans, some of them couldn't feel as German Nationals because they have huge problems dealing with theirs nazi past, but they still are Ethnic Germans.
Anybody with even a bit of common sense would tell you the same.
Original Austrian culture??
What are you talking about?

I repeat: even though they had German origins, over the centuries Austrian people developed a Mitteleuropean culture and a peculiar mentality different from the German.
Probably, in Italy we know Austrians better than British people know them, because they are always our neighbours and what with reciprocal exchanges, dominations and wars, we have a lot of History in common with them.

[Jimmyson]

Dear Jimmyson,

Simply, Austrians are Austrians.

I think there aren't peoples, but only different cultures that develope as the individual personality in a young man.

So, at the Babenberg's times, probably there weren't significant differences between the culture of the inhabitants of the "Ostmark" and the culture of the other German groups (in particular Bavarians), but over the centuries, for the geographical position of this Alpine region placed in the heart of the Europe and for many historical conditions, this people developed then an autonomous culture different from the German thanks to the large Mediterranean and Mitteleuropean cultural influences: in this way, the Austrian culture was born.

About Hitler, when he was young he hated the cosmopolitan atmosphere of Wien, because he didn't understand the Austrian culture historically founded upon principles of tollerance.

About Mozart, he was principally a son of the age of the Enlightenment, but also (and incontestably) an illoustrious son of the original Austrian culture.

Ciao

Nobody is denying the Austrians are Austrians in the nationality sense...I am talking ethnically and ethnically Austrians are Germans.

Oh be quiet about Adolf Hitler you have no idea what you are typing about, Austrian culture? Ethnicity has culture involved the Austrians culture is German, give up lad.

Mozart was German.

[Jimmyson]

Dear Jimmyson,

Simply, Austrians are Austrians.

I think there aren't peoples, but only different cultures that develope as the individual personality in a young man.

So, at the Babenberg's times, probably there weren't significant differences between the culture of the inhabitants of the "Ostmark" and the culture of the other German groups (in particular Bavarians), but over the centuries, for the geographical position of this Alpine region placed in the heart of the Europe and for many historical conditions, this people developed then an autonomous culture different from the German thanks to the large Mediterranean and Mitteleuropean cultural influences: in this way, the Austrian culture was born.

Nobody denies that Austrians are Austrians in the nationality sense as Austria is separate from Germany, but they are ethnically German, thus Austrians are ethnic Germans - therefore German.

You seem to be missing my point this whole Austrians are not Germans is a post 1945 thing, if Austria had won Prussia in 1866 and led the German Empire in 1871 as opposed to Prussia, would you be arguing today that Prussians are not Germans?

Hi, Jimmyson!
I'm not talking over "recent" political events since 1866, but I'm underlining the autonomous culture and mentality (influenced from Mediterranean & Mitteleuropean components) historically developed in Austria over the centuries.
Austrians had an original Austrian culture and a particular Austrian mentality decidedly different from the German.

Austrians ethnicity doesn't change from German - ethnicity is your blood - your common ancestry.

Austrians are ethnically German in 1866 and 2011, it will never change.

[Jimmyson]

What is "German"? There is no german race or blood. Germans always ment (before chauvinist nonsene grew up in 19th century): speaking german language and having german culture. Of course most Austrians belong to german ethnic and culture. Of course Austria has it´s special varities as all german and german speaking regions have. And Austria is politically a nation which doesn´t belong any more to a German state, no doubt. Austrians are Austrians , but also part of german ethnic familiy. Especially since 1945 they found their own austrian consience.
Germans (or german etnic people) are a mixture of germanic, slavonic, celtic but also a lots of other roots.
Look at address books of every german town...
We don´t need neither german nor austrian chauvinism.
To claim only "Austrians are Germans" is too simple and wrong. But this kind of austrian chauvinism to deny is ridicolous.

More anti-Nazi BS?

Yes they is German nationality and ethnicity, if they wasn't who on earth was German before the unified Germany pre-1871 then?

You can call an Austrian a German in 2011 it is not wrong - they are ethnically German.

Habsburgs had ruled Germany for centuries, stop stripping Austria from centuries of history.

[Jimmyson]

Austria and Germany share the same ethnic population German this is not even debatable it is a fact.

I posted a big bit explaining why Austrians are Germans and nobody even responded to it because their don't like to hear the truth, post-1945 Austrians have distanced themselves from Germans yes, but ethnicity never changes...German.

[Annelie]

Jimmyson and others.

Perhaps we should let the Austrians and Germans decided for themselves?

[Jimmyson]

Jimmyson and others.

Perhaps we should let the Austrians and Germans decided for themselves?

Do you realise how much anti Nazi propaganda has now made the Austrians not feel German anymore.

If you had asked an Austrian before WW2 whether he / she feels German - I guarantee their would have said yes, now things are different.

I am not saying Austrians are not Austrians - of course - Austria is a separate country to Germany so they nationality is Austrian, but an ethnicity will never change...they ethnicity is German.

[ManfredV]

Jimmyson and others.

Perhaps we should let the Austrians and Germans decided for themselves?

Very good!
For people from other countries or nations it is sometimes not easy to understand what "german" means. German ethnicity, culture, language area und political organisation is not the same. There are different definitions what "german" is. This has historical reasons and as I stated before, german culture is not a centralistic, it has a lot of varities.
I - as German, South german and Franconian - talk about a German ethnic family. We in South Germany have a lot of things common with Austrians and in some points they are nearer to us then people from Berlin or Hamburg (in a cultural way but also in language). Well, Lukas Resetarits, Ludwig Hirsch or Wolfgang Ambros are typical austrian (or special Vienna?) culture. But if you didn´t know there are to different states, in Upper Bavaria and Salzburg/Tirol you often wouldn´t see a difference in language and culture.
@Jimmyson: no, it didn´t need an "anti nazi propaganda" for Austria since 1945, they semselves developed their own austrian consciousness and identity. Since 1945 they want to be seperated from (political) Germany and many of them even from german culture and I understand why.
Many Austrians claimed Austria to be a victim of Hitler and denied their part in Nazi time. Late Otto Habsburg-Lothringen also claimed this. But it was Chancellor Vranitzky who remembered his nation, that they were both victims and deliquents.
So in my eyes, Germans (from Federal Republic) and Austrians belong to one (cultural) German "familiy" with a great common part of history and culture but also great regional varities. And there are good reasons why Austria (and Swiss) are their own political nations and I think, thats alright.