belgian aircraft weapons: pics and queries

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daveh
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belgian aircraft weapons: pics and queries

#1

Post by daveh » 09 Mar 2016, 22:27

http://browningmgs.com/FN/02_Aircraft.htm shows the following

Fixed MG:
A fixed mounting on a Fairey Fox.png
A Fairy Fox with the fixed Browning FN 7.65m Modele 1930 machine gun exposed. Synchronizing the rate of fire to the prop speed prevented the gun from firing into the prop blades. A link chute can be seen immediately behind the barrel channel, and below that, the cartridge chute. These chutes emerge above the lower wing.

As far as I am aware the Hawker Hurricanes and Gloster Gladiators used 7.65 FN Brownings in the British wing and fuselage mountings. Is this correct?

Did the Fiat CR 42 retain its 2x12.7mm Breda-SAFAT?

Flexibly mounted MG:
Fairey Fox with a single Modele 30 on flexible mount.jpg
Fairey Fox with a single Modele 30 on flexible mount.jpg (23.19 KiB) Viewed 1899 times
The Fairey Battle had a Browning FN on the Fairey Hi-speed mount.
Twin Browning FN modele1932s.jpg
Twin Browning FN modele1932s.jpg (31.92 KiB) Viewed 1899 times
I've not seen a pic of the twin mounting on a Belgian aircraft (after only a brief look I admit


Does anyone know of other types of mountings or machine guns used operationally by Belgian aircaft?

Bombs

I have seen a suggestion that he Belgian obtained their bombs from the UK, is this correct?

Bomb sizes
I assume, based on the details given in aircraft specs, that there were 20kg and perhaps 220 kg. Anyone know the actual sizes avaulable?

daveh
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Re: belgian aircraft weapons: pics and queries

#2

Post by daveh » 13 Mar 2016, 18:14

Loading bombs onto a Fairey Battle
Fairey Battle 16a2.jpg
?250lb bomb


daveh
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Re: belgian aircraft weapons: pics and queries

#3

Post by daveh » 13 Mar 2016, 21:52

Between c. 1.28 and 2.20 minutes on the video
L'aviation belge en 1940
at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Idj9ea ... freload=10

there is a sequence showing bombs being loaded on a Fairey Battle. 4 small bombs can be seen under one wing and a larger bomb is shown being loaded into one of the 4 bomb bays.
The commentary is in French but I don't think specific weights were given for the bombs. I hope someone can confir this

daveh
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Re: belgian aircraft weapons: pics and queries

#4

Post by daveh » 14 Mar 2016, 19:29

The SABCA S.47 was completed and then tested in September 19, 1939. Production was to start in mid 1940.
It was intended to carry 50kg and 10 kg bombs and mount 1 20mm automatic cannon HS-404 firing through the hollow propeller shaft, with 40 rounds of ammunition.

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Prosper Vandenbroucke
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Re: belgian aircraft weapons: pics and queries

#5

Post by Prosper Vandenbroucke » 15 Mar 2016, 22:48

Hi Daveh,
The Fairey Battle was able to be load with 8 bombs of 50kg.
For the bombings of the bridges over the Albert Canal the Belgian Fairey Battles were loaded with bombs of 50 kg.
Kindly regards from Belgium
Prosper :wink:
I didn't know the weight of the smaller bombs. Sorry.

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Re: belgian aircraft weapons: pics and queries

#6

Post by daveh » 16 Mar 2016, 12:55

Thanks for your reply Prosper
According to
http://kanyiko.deviantart.com/art/Hurri ... -445289897
 the Fairey Battle bombers of the 5/III/3Aé were among the only ones to escape the initial German assault on the morning of May 10th, leaving their base at Evere/Haren airfield for their reserve base at Belsele, only to lose two of their number there to German bombs.  They swiftly diverted to another reserve field... only to realise they had left all of their bombs at their base at Evere.  Trucks were soon dispatched to fetch them, but these returned with the wrong kind - too light to destroy the targets they were tasked to destroy.


source I have seen confirm that the Fairey Battle could carry 4 x 250 lbs, a more suitable bomb for use against the bridges. The above quote suggests larger bombs did exist

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Re: belgian aircraft weapons: pics and queries

#7

Post by Stovepipe » 22 Oct 2016, 22:50

The Belgians used 12.7mm Browning in a four-gun set up on their Hurricanes. Norman Franks book, ten days in May, says that a belgian called D'ertsenreijk shot down a He 111 with such weapons.

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Prosper Vandenbroucke
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Re: belgian aircraft weapons: pics and queries

#8

Post by Prosper Vandenbroucke » 22 Oct 2016, 23:37

Stovepipe wrote:The Belgians used 12.7mm Browning in a four-gun set up on their Hurricanes. Norman Franks book, ten days in May, says that a belgian called D'ertsenreijk shot down a He 111 with such weapons.
This belgian pilot was in fact named Albert van den Hove d’Ertsenrijck
it's correct to write that the belgian Hurricanes were armed with 4 12,7 mm browning guns (Belgian made Hurricanes under licence by the firm Fairey at Gosselies), but I didn't agree Norman Frank while he is writing that van den Hove d'Hertsenrijck shot down a Heinkel He 111 during those ten days in may (in fact it were 18 days ). van den Hove take off, at the 10th of may, on one of the two belgian hurricanes still able to fly
(the nine others were destroyed by german bombs in the early morning of the same day) He attacked alone a german formation but was shot down and his plane was seriously damaged.
I didt'n know what happens to him between the 10th of may and the 15th of september 1940, but on the 15th september 1940 he was flying with the R.A.F. (battle of Britain into the 501 or 43 RAF Squadron) and he was KIA at the 15th september after had obtained 3 victories (I didn't know which type of aircraft he shot down but I am sure that it not happens in Belgium.)

Kindly regards and sorry for my poor english.
Prosper :wink: :wink:

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Re: belgian aircraft weapons: pics and queries

#9

Post by Stovepipe » 23 Oct 2016, 20:08

Nice one! i wondered what became of him.It's apity the RAF didn't field the 12.7mm in their Hurricanes and Spitfires for the BoB.

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Re: belgian aircraft weapons: pics and queries

#10

Post by LineDoggie » 23 Oct 2016, 21:16

Stovepipe wrote:Nice one! i wondered what became of him.It's apity the RAF didn't field the 12.7mm in their Hurricanes and Spitfires for the BoB.
It would have added a Logistics nightmare to the RAF. All other RAF Aircraft fixed Machineguns were Colt-Browning .303 (AN/M2 style)

New Mounts. Ammo holders, chutes for links and cases in the Aircraft
New Ammo supply and Linkage/Delinkage tools
Ammo itself
Guns and spares for same
Retraining Armourers, and even Pilots on use, maintenance and boresighting
Modifying gunsights
New training procedures before being posted to operational squadrons
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

John T
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Re: belgian aircraft weapons: pics and queries

#11

Post by John T » 23 Oct 2016, 21:21

Sorry if this is to high jack a thread
but I'm interested of Belgian production of 12,7 and 13,2 mm guns and ammo during the period 1939 - May 1940

Sweden ordered 13,2 mm guns and ammo from FN during 1939, and I'm curious if anyone know production figures,
both for guns and and ammo. Me thinks you can lump together 13,2 and 12,7mm

Cheers
/John

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Re: belgian aircraft weapons: pics and queries

#12

Post by John T » 23 Oct 2016, 21:26

LineDoggie wrote:
Stovepipe wrote:Nice one! i wondered what became of him.It's apity the RAF didn't field the 12.7mm in their Hurricanes and Spitfires for the BoB.
It would have added a Logistics nightmare to the RAF. All other RAF Aircraft fixed Machineguns were Colt-Browning .303 (AN/M2 style)
Did RAF consider 0.303 to be up to the job?

Browning in 12,7 did work, rather than the 20mm oerlicon's at least initial mess.
Cheers
/John T

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Re: belgian aircraft weapons: pics and queries

#13

Post by LineDoggie » 24 Oct 2016, 05:23

John T wrote:
LineDoggie wrote:
Stovepipe wrote:Nice one! i wondered what became of him.It's apity the RAF didn't field the 12.7mm in their Hurricanes and Spitfires for the BoB.
It would have added a Logistics nightmare to the RAF. All other RAF Aircraft fixed Machineguns were Colt-Browning .303 (AN/M2 style)
Did RAF consider 0.303 to be up to the job?

Browning in 12,7 did work, rather than the 20mm oerlicon's at least initial mess.
Cheers
/John T
I believe several reasons for the RAF staying with .303

Tremendous amounts of .303 on hand, in production, and facilities for its production which could not be rapidly changed to say .50 Browning (Add to that Commonality with land use of .303 was an economic savings).
Problems initially with the 20mm feed stoppages
Tactical belief in smothering a target with bullets in the shortest period of time to ensure a kill.


.303 is a good round and a proven killer of aircraft esp wood and canvas ones. but by 1940 few enemy craft were built like a Fokker DVII.
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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Re: belgian aircraft weapons: pics and queries

#14

Post by Stovepipe » 24 Oct 2016, 12:54

They could have adopted the 12.7mm gun easily enough; the wing itself had already been modified by Fairey in Gosselies so Hawker probably knew about it anyway, as it was their design they were modifying. Hawker's design staff were probably consulted about it, in the normal course of changing someone else's design. Being a Browning, the mechs would have had no problem learning about the gun. As the RAF was constantly evolving, mechs and others were regularly having to learn about new technologies or changes to equipment and the RAF had a very efficient system for doing that. The RAF in general were already familiar with the gun, having seen it in P36/P40/Buffalo so it wouldn't have been entirely new to the organisation. The gun already had a proven pedigree in terms of operational use and would have been less of a challenge to adopt as the 20mm was. The feed and freezing problems encountered by the Hispano in the Spitfire had already been overcome by the 12.7mm. Also, the Russians later modified their Hurricanes with their own 12.7s, alongside 20 and 23mm weapons.

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Re: belgian aircraft weapons: pics and queries

#15

Post by daveh » 25 Oct 2016, 11:40

Stovepipe you state that
the wing itself had already been modified by Fairey in Gosselies
do you have a source for this?

I know of

http://www.luchtvaarterfgoed.be/nl/cont ... nrard-h-26

which mentions that
[H34] was flown by Cpn Arend to Nivelles on March 14, 1940 to test the installation of MG 13mm.

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