BELGIAN T-13 & T-15

[YAN]

Not many nations used 13.2mm weapons in WW2, the only ones I know are these:

France/ Belgium: 13.2mm mle 1930 HMG
Romania: 13.2mm AAMG M.1931
Japan: Type 93 13.2mm HMG
Italy: 31.2mm Breda 31 HMG

I bet the Romanian, Japanese and Italian 13.2mm were all based on the Hotchkiss model.

Ian,

[The Edge]

Regarding the 13.2mm Hotchkiss HMG - viewtopic.php?f=112&t=158723

13.2mm Breda HMG was an original design, but heavily influenced by Hotchkiss one.

Another 13.2mm HMG used in WWII was FN-Browning aircraft gun (used by Belgium, Sweden, Yugoslavia) and the Japanese Browning-copies in the same caliber (Type 2 & Type 3 models - http://www.dragonsoffire.com/aircraft-jnavy.htm ).

Cheers, Edge

[YAN]

Thanks Edge.

I think the Italian Carro Commando M41/42 Tank mounted the 13.2mm Model 31, but only in small numbers.

Yan.

[JBbelgium]

I came across this information from http://www.zuidfront-holland1940.nl/ind ... e-defensie about Belgian AFV's:
"Literature in Belgium often states that Belgium had 250 light tanks. A study by the Belgian Lieutenant-Colonel A. Bikar (1) shows however that Belgium had no less than 239 T-13's on 10 May 1940.
This means that Belgium had 283 tanks, counting the T-13's, 36 T-15's [sic 42 T15's] and 8 AMC-35.
(1) A. Bikar, 1993: "Mai 1940: Une Unité peu connu de Chasseurs Ardennais: La Compagnie T13 de la PFN", Revue Belge d'Histoire militaire, vol. I./1993, pp. 22-45."

As far as I know Belgium had 42 T15's and 8 operational ACG-1 tanks (the AMC-35) if Bikar is right than we should add 239 T13's:
42+8+239 = 289 modern AFV's
12 old Berliet VUDB's + 6 old Carden Loyd with C47 = 307

Other stuff worth mentioning: 4 other ACG-1's that could not be repaired, a few old Renault FT-17 and FT-18 tanks were used as tractors to tow Cointet elements in place, others were were broken beyond repair.

[daveh]

Earlier posts in this topic discuss the question of numbers of T 13s and other Belgian AFV.
There is general agreement on there being

42 T 15
12 Berliet VUDB
6 Vickers Mk VI
35 T 13 BI
21 T 13 BII
8 ACG-1
i.e.124 AFV

Bikar gives a total of 183 T13 BIII in addition to the above for a total of 307.

The list given earlier by Eric Simon gives an additional 2 Renault ACG-1 a well as the 194 T13 BIII for a total of 320 AFV

The operational strength of l'Escadron d'Autos Blindes du Corps de Cavalerie was 8. There were 2 platoons one with numbers 807, 817, 829 and 832 the other with 803, 814, 831 and 833. The organisational chart had an ACG-1 in each platoon HQ but these were never issued.

Deducting 2 ACG-1 from Eric Simon's total gives us a figure of 318 AFV.

The first production order for T 13 BIII was for 194 vehicles which was completed by September 1939. This gives a total of 250 T 13s of various models at this date. This is the figure used by Simon.

An examination of pictures showing vehicle registration numbers shows a 3499. This suggest the sequence of registration numbers for the second batch of BIIIs continues directly from those of the first batch. The highest number I've seen is 3544 suggesting that perhaps some 50 vehicles of batch two were built and issued. However there is no evidence for more than 250 T 13s of all models issued on the basis of unit allocations i have seen listed.

So overall it seems known production figures suggests a total of 318 is a likelier figure than 307 while vehicle registrations suggest the figure may be as high as 368.

[JBbelgium]

Hi Daveh
I have read all those topics too. The number 3544 was visible in a picture of a T13 in German service, wasn't it? That is useful to get a correct production number but doesn't really prove that the Belgian had army that much T13's in use. Although that's probably not your point.

318 AFV's sounds like a pretty good (minimum) estimation

Some T13's may have been in the Reservewielvoertuigenpark/ Parc du Charroi de Réserve in Ghendt. The 1st light regiment (gendarmes) sent their last VUDB armoured cars to the park on 18 May because they were too unreliable. They got some T13's in exchange. Which means that a number of T13's was at this reserve car park, these could be some of 50 missing pieces.

[daveh]

Musing on rates of production for the T 13 B III
When was production started?
Bikar states that all the first order of 194 T 13 B III were delivered by September 1939 having been ordered in 1938. If all were produced in 1939 this gives a production rate of c.21 or so a month.
At this rate a further c.150 could have been produced in the 7 months October 1939 to May 1940. Does anyone know when the second order was due to be completed as this is very close to the 158 vehicles ordered?

[JBbelgium]

Does anyone know if the American tankdestroyer doctrine was based on or influenced by the Belgian use of C47 towed by VUB's and the self-propelled T13's? A certain lieutenant colonel Brown served as an American military observer in Belgium from 1937 to 1940. I haven't read it yet but his findings should be in this article: J.E. Helenreich, “An American Perception of Belgian military preparedness, 1937-1940”, in: Belgisch tijdschrift voor militaire geschiedenis, 19 (1984), 5, pp. 428-430.

Neither of the following articles (just google the name) mention anything about Belgium:
-Seek, Strike, and Destroy: U.S. Army Tank Destroyer Doctrine in World War two by Dr. Christopher R. Gabel
Combat Studies Institute U.S. Army Command and General Staff College
-THE EVOLUTION AND DEMISE OF U.S. TANK DESTROYER DOCTRINE IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR
BRYAN E. DENNY, MAJ, US ARMY B.S., Appalachian State University, Boone, North Carolina, 1990

It seems unlikely to me that the American Army was unaware of the Belgian used of motorised and self-propelled AT-guns yet no one seems to mention them. That's odd.