Hi I know I have metioned this on another thread but I really cant get to the bottom of this question, Estonian Artillery, I have Put down a list of the type of Artillery I have on file that the Estonians used, can anyone correct me if I have missed out any or added one that they did not use.
20mm Anti-tank Rifle (Swiss/Solothurn S18/1000)
81mm Mortar (French/Brandt mle 1936)
37mm Anti-Tank Gun (German/Rheinmetall Pak 35/36)
47mm Infantry Gun (Bohler M.35B)
75mm Field Gun (French/Puteaux mle 1897)
18pdr Field Gun (British MK 4)
105mm Howitzer (British) ??????????
107mm Field Gun (Russian or French) ??????????
105mm Howitzer (French/Schneider mle 1913)
4.5in Field Howitzer (British/Vickers) ????????????????
152mm Howitzer (Russian) ????????????????????
I also heard they used Schneider 155mm mle 1917 Howitzers ? & British 13 pdrs ?.
Thanks Yan.
Estonian artillery
As for anti-tank guns, they imported four of the Solothurns and liked it so much they started to build unlicensed copies. I think around twenty had been produced by June 1941 out of 50-70 planned for the regimental ATR sections.
Four Bohlers were purchased and ultimately rejected in favor of 44 of the commercial version of the Rheinmetall 37mm, with the 50-calibre barrel. These were to equip five motorized 8-gun AT companies, but only three had been formed by June 41.
Source: Laidoner museum website article on Estonian AT defense.
Four Bohlers were purchased and ultimately rejected in favor of 44 of the commercial version of the Rheinmetall 37mm, with the 50-calibre barrel. These were to equip five motorized 8-gun AT companies, but only three had been formed by June 41.
Source: Laidoner museum website article on Estonian AT defense.
How certain you are about that number? According Estonian article translated in Finnish I read while back the number of 20-mm Solothurn manufactured in Estonia before Soviet forced annexation was just 2 or 3.Susan Cross wrote:As for anti-tank guns, they imported four of the Solothurns and liked it so much they started to build unlicensed copies. I think around twenty had been produced by June 1941 out of 50-70 planned for the regimental ATR sections.
Jarkko
Estonian AT Rifles
I went back and checked my notes, and I have 4 x S18-100 scratched out and 5 written in. Under this I have "21 S18-100 manufactured illegally in 39-40 (20 in 40)"
However the article on the Laidoner Muuseum site is gone, and I could not resurrect it with the Internet Archive. I contacted the museum staff and perhaps they can confirm the number.
In addition I have figures for a total of 12,000 AT mines TM-34 being produced, also another model, TM-37. The 3 AT companies that were actually formed were No. 1 at Narva, No. 2 at Voris and No. 3 at Tartu. They had a strength of 6 officers and 100 men, with 23 vehicles and 3 motorcycles. 22 x Steyr 640 and 18 x Stoewer R180 were ordered as towing vehicles for the five planned companies.
However the article on the Laidoner Muuseum site is gone, and I could not resurrect it with the Internet Archive. I contacted the museum staff and perhaps they can confirm the number.
In addition I have figures for a total of 12,000 AT mines TM-34 being produced, also another model, TM-37. The 3 AT companies that were actually formed were No. 1 at Narva, No. 2 at Voris and No. 3 at Tartu. They had a strength of 6 officers and 100 men, with 23 vehicles and 3 motorcycles. 22 x Steyr 640 and 18 x Stoewer R180 were ordered as towing vehicles for the five planned companies.
Estonian Artillery
I have some notes from various sites on the internet about Estonian artillery holdings in 1939
96 x 76.2mm ex Russian
59 x 84mm ex British (18 Pdr)
20 x 107mm Schneider
23 x 114mm ex British (4.5" Howitzer)
8 x 150mm ex German
29 x 152mm Schneider
also 20 x 105mm Bofors howitzers were alledgedly on order but not delivered
with a reserve of 250,000 shells (considered 1 month's supply)
96 x 76.2mm ex Russian
59 x 84mm ex British (18 Pdr)
20 x 107mm Schneider
23 x 114mm ex British (4.5" Howitzer)
8 x 150mm ex German
29 x 152mm Schneider
also 20 x 105mm Bofors howitzers were alledgedly on order but not delivered
with a reserve of 250,000 shells (considered 1 month's supply)
Hmm... not more than 34. Finnish Army bought 70 French 81-mm Brandt mortars year 1926 (and named them "81 Krh/26"). Finnish company Tampella started making mortars year 1932 (and also developing versions of its own). According Finnish sources 81 Krh/26 mortars were sold to Estonia around 1936 - 1937. Naturally it's possible that these actually ended up to some other place (Spain?) than the official destination.Susan Cross wrote:Saw a table on an Estonian-language website that indicates 34 x 81mm Mortars in service by 1940.
According recent book "Tampellasta Patriaan" ("From Tampella to Patria", history of this particular company) by Vesa Toivonen Estonia ordered ten 81-mm Brandt mortars from Tampella in year 1935.
Jarkko
Tampella Mortars
This is an example of how a question can lead to unexpected results.
From the last post we get 10 x 81mm mortars exported to Estonia.
From other places on the net I have seen a figure of 100 Tampella mortars exported to Lithuania from 1935, and 60 mortars plus 5,500 rounds and a manufacturing licence for Latvia in 1938. 170 mortars seems high in that Finland had so few mortars for herself in the WInter War. How many mortars did Tampella produce before the war, how many actually for Finland, and how many and to what countries were they exported? Did some go to Spain?
From the last post we get 10 x 81mm mortars exported to Estonia.
From other places on the net I have seen a figure of 100 Tampella mortars exported to Lithuania from 1935, and 60 mortars plus 5,500 rounds and a manufacturing licence for Latvia in 1938. 170 mortars seems high in that Finland had so few mortars for herself in the WInter War. How many mortars did Tampella produce before the war, how many actually for Finland, and how many and to what countries were they exported? Did some go to Spain?
Re: Tampella Mortars
The information according which Tampella sold 100 Brandt mortars to Lithuania in 1935 is correct. According the book I mentioned above Tampella sold Latvia 60 (or in fact 64) incomplete 81-mm Brandt mortars and these were delivered in 1939. Tampella could not sell Finnish Army more mortars than what Finnish Army could order from it. Anyway, this is not the real issue. Tampella manufactured quite a large number of mortars before World War 2. Between 1933 - 1939 Finnish Army ordered 572 mortars from Tampella and during the same period Tampella also manufactured 579 mortars to export. However the actual deliveries seemed to have either been lagging behind or large part of them happened so late that the mortars were not delivered before Winter War. When Winter War started 30th of November 1939 Finnish Army had just 292 81-mm mortars (about half of the number it had ordered from Tampella).Susan Cross wrote:This is an example of how a question can lead to unexpected results.
From the last post we get 10 x 81mm mortars exported to Estonia.
From other places on the net I have seen a figure of 100 Tampella mortars exported to Lithuania from 1935, and 60 mortars plus 5,500 rounds and a manufacturing licence for Latvia in 1938. 170 mortars seems high in that Finland had so few mortars for herself in the WInter War. How many mortars did Tampella produce before the war, how many actually for Finland, and how many and to what countries were they exported? Did some go to Spain?
Also when Winter War begun 127 of these 579 export-mortars were still in Finland and were confiscated by Finnish authorities for Finnish Army. The mortars delivered to Finnish Army before Winter War were almost all 81-mm (exception: Small number of 47-mm and 60-mm prototypes plus one 120-mm prototype, which the Army supposedly never bought). The export-mortars were 60-mm and 81-mm. If the 60 / 64 mortars ordered by Latvia were delivered and when seems to be somewhat problematic - it seems that they may have been among the 127 mortars confiscated, but yet according Tampella documents they were delivered 1939 and 1940 Latvia also made reclamation concerning them - both of these suggesting that they were indeed delivered.
Year 1934 Brandt and Tampella had signed contract, which both gave Tampella rights for producing Brandt mortars under license and made it sub-contractor of Brandt. In other words: Tampella could manufacture Brandt-Stokes mortars for Finnish military as long as it paid 8% royalty from these to Brandt. In addition Brandt-Stokes ordered its own mortar designs from Tampella to armed forces of other countries and sold these Tampella-manufactured mortars as its own products.
Officially no armaments were sold from Finland to Spain during Spanish Civil War - Finland followed international treaties very precisely. However there were some exports of armaments (small-arms ammunition, Japanese 75 VK/98 mountain guns and small number of Suomi submachineguns), which ended up there anyway. What is known also some Estonian armaments seem to have ended up there. This is just guesswork, but considering the time it would have been quite possible for these missing 81 Krh/26 mortars to end up there?
Jarkko
Finnish Mortars
Thank you very, very much.
The only question I can think of in addition is, how many of the confiscated mortars were for Estonia, if any?
The only question I can think of in addition is, how many of the confiscated mortars were for Estonia, if any?
Re: Finnish Mortars
Most likely none - since they had been ordered already year 1935 I would be very surprised if the delivery would not have happened already long before Winter War.Susan Cross wrote:Thank you very, very much.
The only question I can think of in addition is, how many of the confiscated mortars were for Estonia, if any?
Jarkko